A Hopeful Sign for Chabad?
When the Chief Rabbinate decided to reject a convert who accepted all the Commandments but professed the belief that the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Messiah, we should have expected a debate to follow. The Jerusalem Post took the role of host, giving us the ex-somewhat-Chabad Rabbi Shmuley Botach declaring “Chabad messianists: Wrong, but still Jews,” and Rabbi David Berger replying with “Rabbi Boteach, you’re wrong about Chabad.”
Now, the latest, from Eli Soble: “Our Rebbe is the messiah.” Troubling, to be certain… but how authoritative a representative is this author? He is described only as “a former Chabad rabbinical student and active in the movement’s educational work.” He’s not a Rabbi or a Shaliach, much less a leading figure within Lubavitch. Many self-declared Lubavitcher Chassidim contradict his statements and quotations in the article comments, as well.
On the day the Rebbe died, a reporter for WCBS News radio in New York gave air time to a young Chassid assuring us that the Rebbe will “get up,” that he will rise from the dead as Moshiach. I recall posting on an early Jewish mailing list that we should all respond with empathy to despondent chassidim while rejecting that viewpoint, and having a relatively prominent figure in Chabad’s Internet presence accuse me of causing Jews to waiver in their belief in the Coming of the Messiah. I’m not making this up.
Perhaps the fact that the JPost could find no more prominent an authority than a “former rabbinical student” who is “active in the movement’s educational work” to declare the departed Rebbe the Messiah is a hopeful sign. Meaning even if the belief is still common within Chabad, as I am sure Rabbi Berger would hasten to say, people are more and more reluctant to proclaim themselves adherents. Maybe I’m being too optimistic, but that would be a most welcome development.
May I ask about the principle behind this? At what point are wrong beliefs reasons to reject a convert? It seems to me there is a spectrum between beliefs that have nothing to do with religion to those that are complete kfira (= heresy). At what point does a belief disqualify a convert?
Comment by Ori — February 3, 2008 @ 11:16 pm
Now, the latest, from Eli Soble: “Our Rebbe is the messiah.” Troubling, to be certain… but how authoritative a representative is this author?
The greater question is how can anyone intepreate the words Eli Soble quoted from the Rebbe as anything other than a virtual proclamaiton by the Rebbe himself that he is the Messiah? Can any Lubavitvher be blamed for being a Meshichist? What differecne does it makes who the one qouting the Rebbe is? It is the quotes that are troubling… not the messenger who brings us those words.
Comment by Harry Maryles — February 3, 2008 @ 11:24 pm
Of course you are being excessively optimistic.
Eli Soble’s article only outlines what is very well-known to every Lubavitcher Chossid (and many outsiders):
The last Lubavitcher Rebbe himself emphasized in his “inaugural address” in 1951 (on the first Yahrtzeit of his predecessor) that at that time (marked by his assuming the position of Rebbe) was the begining of the “seventh generation” - in which Moshiach will definitely come.
Eli Soble explains further (as is also well-known) that in 1991 and 1992 the Rebbe made many remarks which were clear hints to his followers that he himself is Moshiach.
Not mentioned by Eli Soble:
This belief actually has its roots in the primary thesis of the First Lubavitcher Rebbe - in “Tanya” - where he wrote that Moshiach will come “in the seventh generation”.
In fact, there is a widespread story among Lubavitcher Chassidim, relating that - more than 100 years ago - when the Lubavitcher Rebbe was less than 3 years old - his father-in-law (HaRav Yosef Yitzchok Schneerson - who was the predecessor of the seventh Rebbe) instructed the Rebbe’s father to make sure to give him an exemplary Chassidic-style education - because HaRav Yosef Yitzchok Schneerson had only daughters, and this young Menachem Mendel would have to marry one of them and become the seventh Rebbe. Further details of this story include the explanation that this was because the sixth Rebbe knew (obviously) what was written in Tanya (cited above) and he felt that therefore he must prepare to have a successor who is descended in the Male line from the first Rebbe, and through him (according to Lubavitch tradition) from Dovid HaMellech.
(I first heard this from somebody in the Lubavitch movement more than 40 years ago, around the time of the Yom Kippur War in Eretz Yisroel.)
The bottom line is that any Lubavitcher Chossid who does not believe that (1) The Rebbe is Moshiach and (2) the Rebbe is still alive (and therefore we are STill in the seventh generation today - is denying the teachings of both the first and last Lubavitcher Rebbes.
So how can anybody hope that these people will ever change from this belief - which was taught to them by the first and last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s?
Today’s Lubavitch leadership is only pretending to the outside world that this is not one of their essential core beliefs. That’s why they didn’t present this viewpoint to the media (and they allowed Eli Soble to present it instead.)
(And one more question: There is such a widespread belief among Lubavitcher Chassidim that one has only to ask the Rebbe for whatever we need - instead of asking HaShem - and the Rebbe will grant it.
Isn’t this clearly Avodoh Zoroh - which is obviously even worse than believing that a deceased Rebbe is Moshiach?)
I personally saw in a Lubavitch text for non-religious Hebrew-School students that Gimmel Tammuz is the day when we could “no longer see the Rebbe” - right after the same text had listed the dates when the previous 6 Rebbes “died”. (That’s an important distinction.) I also saw in a Lubavitch “Teachers’ Guide” for use in such Hebrew-Schools that the students should be taught that whenever they need something they should just ask the Rebbe for it because the “Rebbe is everywhere” and he will hear you and give you what you want.
Rabbi David Berger has (reputedly) stated publicly that he is not against Lubavitch - only against these erroneous beliefs. But the fact is that these beliefs (that Moshiach must come during the lifetime of the seventh Rebbe and therefore he must still be alive today) are a part of the core-teachings of both the first and last Lubavitcher Rebbes.
Don’t allow your optimism to fool you.
Comment by Mordechai — February 4, 2008 @ 12:56 am
I would not put too much into JPOST’s choice of who they publish.
a)the article title is provacative and polemicizes agains Dr. Berger, good for attracting readers and
b) JPOST will publish whatever they can get. I’ve seen other instances (regarding coverage of Ramat Bet Shemesh) where they speak to one rabbi from the neighborhood and thats it. No research to find out who the non-charedi rabbis are and no mention of them.
David
Comment by David — February 4, 2008 @ 3:43 am
No, Harry, it is both. And especially the latter. For at the heat of the moment, and with veiled language, a tsaddik may be forgiven for his overly zealousa language. But AFTER the fact, when the facts are cold and hard, it’s the die-hard interpretors who bear the brunt. Comparisons with Rav Kook, zts”l, should come to mind.
Comment by yy — February 4, 2008 @ 7:15 am
Differences about the desirability of widely publicizing a belief are not the same as differences about the belief itself.
Comment by Bob Miller — February 4, 2008 @ 10:16 am
Does Eli Soble report the Rebbe’s words accurately and in context, and did the Rebbe say them while still in full possession in his mental facilities? What is more important, would the Chabadniks in a generation or two have such doubts, or would they also be likely to accept that the Rebbe was mashiach?
Comment by Ori — February 4, 2008 @ 10:17 am
i think this is a bit naive. i would venture one could find hundreds of shluchim world wide who would gladly write a polemical column and end it with yechi. this just happesns to be who wrote in. but your hopeful naivete stems from great ahavat yisrael….
Comment by lacosta — February 4, 2008 @ 11:16 am
You clearly are being overly optimistic. It is this constant tempering of condemnation, rationalizing about all the “good” things, that has enabled the lunatic fringe there to take over the asylum. Had this been strongly and loudly condemned from the onset, I believe things would be very different.
Yes, they did (and sometimes still do) good things. Yes, the Rebbe a”h was a talmid chacham.
But someone needs to take a stand. Dr Berger cannot accomplish this by himself, and the Gedolei Torah seem to be afraid.
Why does no one have the spine to condemn either Chabad or “Rabbi” Boteach? Why the need to always qualify negative comments?
Comment by Yossi G. — February 4, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
Lubavitch does amazing things with great mesirus nefesh. They operate all over the world, reaching out to Jews who would otherwise be lost and forgotten. Every Chabad house is like an oasis in the desert, giving water to needy travelers who are dying of thirst.
And while they are saving all these Jews with the water of Torah, they are slipping a few drops of poison into every cup of water — a bit of sheker, a hint of a suggestion of avodah zarah — just a few drops, like a homeopathic dose, slipped into the water.
Does the poison outweight the good they do? That is hard to say. Meanwhile they are saving the lives of people who are dying of thirst, and no one else is out there doing what they do. The few drops of slow-acting poison possibly are batul in the life-giving water. I honestly don’t know.
Comment by Toby Katz — February 5, 2008 @ 1:03 am
Yossi G.: Why does no one have the spine to condemn either Chabad or “Rabbi” Boteach? Why the need to always qualify negative comments?
Ori: Probably because there are already enough divisions in the Jewish people. Imagine you were a Meshichist Chabadnik and some non Chabad Gedolei Torah told you that the Rebbe was wrong, your own Rabbi is a heretic and your community is no place for a frum Jew. Would you:
1. Leave your community and seek some another group.
2. Ignore the Gadol, and rationalize that he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.
I think they are following Hillel in Avot 2:5 because they don’t think the rebuke would work anyway.
ואל תאמר דבר שאי אפשר לשמוע וסופו להישמע
Comment by Ori — February 5, 2008 @ 10:13 am
Rebbitzen Katz
Does the poison outweigh the good they do? That is hard to say. Meanwhile, they are saving the lives of people who are dying of thirst, and no one else is out there doing what they do. The few drops of slow-acting poison possibly are batul in the life-giving water. I honestly don’t know.
There is a fundamental principle of hilchos taaruvos. Ain mevatlin issur l’chatchila (one may not allow even a minute mixture of an unacceptable ingredient where it can be avoided). We can not allow someone to put poison in the water even in homeopathic doses. It is incumbent on everyone else to quench peoples spiritual thirst sans the poison. Hamelacha meruba.
Comment by shmuel — February 5, 2008 @ 1:23 pm
Shmuel,
This is not lechatchila. Non-Chabad rabbis who are silent are not taking a lechatchila position but b’dieved b’shas hadchak, i.e. post facto in a difficult situation which was created without the concurrence of the normative Jewish community or its rabbis. They are what they are and we love them despite their errors.
Comment by Yehoshua Friedman — February 5, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
Toby Katz,
Is it not true that a little bit of Avodah Zara is also y’hareig v’al ya’avor?
Comment by Michoel — February 5, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
a)Just who is this “Eli Sobel”? None of my acquaintances, including a good number of Lubavitchers, have any clue about his identity. Nor has anyone verified the authenticity (including context) of his alleged quotes. Is it possible that he is a “plant” to cast aspersions on Chabad and in a cynical way support Dr. Berger?
b)Will Mordechai (comment at 12.56) please provide sources for his (non-existent) citations of Tanya and the “story” about the Lubavitch Rebbe’s childhood? He is obviously not a “plant” but self-evident antagonist. I am surprised that his creed made it past screening!
Aaron
Comment by Aaron Feldman — February 5, 2008 @ 9:32 pm
This issue has been debated ad naseum even in this forum, I doubt anything I will add will change anyones set mind. It seems every Lubavitcher, Moshichist or not, is painted with the same vile brush, the fact that within Chabad there is extreme anger and even purging (witness the recent court case against the M’s in 770) is meaningless. The fact that any reader here can walk into a Chabad House throughout the USA, and in 99% of the cases will find not one hint of Yechi,Moshiach etc. is meaningless, The fact that at the recent Kinus, attended by over 3500 Rabbis and 1500 lay leaders and not one hint of Moshiach was uttered, is meaningless, to this august crowd of contributors, who continue to fill this and other prominent Blogs with their venom nothing else matters.
How many times have I read, of writers who while grudgingly admit that the Rebbe was “a Talmid Chacham” never even saw one of his, over a hundred, published works in all parts of Torah, Kabbala, Halacha, etc. yet heard from someone that heard from someone that he knew a little how to learn.
How many times have I read of writers who dismiss Chabad work and wax knowingly about the type of Rabbis and communities they establish, and what they do there without even once visiting a Chabad house, or even meeting a Shliach. They rely on heresay, on fragmented stories, on admittedly true stories but of disturbed individuals who perhaps never even learned in a yeshiva but has decided to don a Kapote and wear a Borsalino and a beard. In a recent Blog, I read a comment by one who heard that someone visited someone, not a Rabbi, and before he made Kiddush friday Night he kept looking at the Rebbes Picture. Shoin!! Chabad is Ovdei Avoda Zoro. This is so ridiculous, laughable even, had it not reached such harmful proportions.
How many readers, before they solemnly write out a segment of Klal Yisrael, a huge group of dedicated, good hearted, knowledgeable, nice families, who’ve dedicated their lives, in sometimes extreme conditions, to helping lost souls of Klal yisrael, even bothered to drive thirty minutes, and spend a Shabbos at a random Chabad center, or two or three and see for themselves what really goes on.
I came to Sherman Oaks California 21 years ago, there was nothing anywhere near my area, I was the only Frum Jew within 5 miles. I put up signs and some Yidden walked in. we have had a kosher minyan ever since. I gave a shiur in Chumash Rashi before davening, a dvar Torah before Mussaf, and a shiur at mincha, I gave a tuesday night shiur, and my wife gave a monday night womens shiur. We started an afternoon and Sunday Talmud Torah, ultimately sending dozens of students to the local orthodox day school, which in turn cemented the parents and the whole family to stricter Torah observance. We built a new building with a Mikve, the only mikve in the immediate area for women and the only mens mikve in the entire east valley open daily. we now have over 120 people coming each Shabbos to Daven, we have a minyan 3 time daily with shiurim every morning and evening before mincha. on Yomim Noroim we have 2 minyonim, Ashkenaz and Sefard, wiith an aggregate of close to 800 attenedees, no membership. On Monday nights there is a shiur Torah in Russian on Thursday nights in Hebrew and Tuesday nights in english in addition to lunch and learn. we have a Talmud Torah with over 60 children and a Bat Mitzvah club every year of Bat Mitzvah girls, we have a womens shiur and monthly tehillim groups , and we constantly have speakers on relevant Torah topics. Oh, and Boruch Hashem, we are an established stop for many meshulochim, collecting for decidedly non chabad institutions daily. Of course they don’t seem to have any problem soliciting our funds, I guess Money is not Metame’
The past president of the local elementary school, the largest in the west, walked in to our shul years ago, now he, a full Baal Teshuva and others on that same board as well who are mispallelim at other local Chabad institutions, give back tremendously to the community at large.
there is more, but I wont bore you. Just in The Vally there are 21 such Chabad houses and centers. some more succesful (Agoura Ca., Encino, Tarzana)) some less.
Does anybody reading this realize any of this? before they so willy nilly tar and feather Chabad off the Jewish map?
And yes, we talk about our Rebbe, we teach and learn his Torah, and we inspire people to follow his example of leading a selfless life of Torah and Mitzvos. We are Chassidim, we are connected to a Rebbe, we are proud of that. were it not for the Rebbes inspiration, I would have simply joined my families’ buisness and sat on Blogs all day.
and no, were not perfect not even close, we in Chabad, as in every single group, have their bad rotten apples, doesnt everybody?
I do however, want to express my extreme disgust at “Rebbetzin” Katz, and her vile remarks, in this forum and others, ugly snide words cloaked in backhanded praise wondering whether the poison in every drop of water justifies the good. Afra Lepuma, I take personal offense. I am the Rov of a Chabad Shul, I receive no compensation, I have a business, I receive tens of Shaalos a week from Jews of all valley communities, as it seems that I am the only one available, and I have merited to good Shimush, I am asked to adjudicate disputes, I have shiurim for hours daily, I have Kashered kitchens and put up mezuzos, i have brought unfortunate people to kever Yisrael and attended more Shiva calls than you can even imagine there being. i have visited children and siblings of frum tradiitional homes who have landed in prison, I have made loans and donations to all types of Jews knowing I will never get it back, I have interceded on behalf of single mothers and other unfortunates to all types of schools, camps and institutions for free or reduced admittance and you dare to accuse me and my dear wife and children of instilling poison??? who are you and how dare you even think words like that! let alone write such spiritually murderous poisenous words? how does a Jewish daughter even say such things? your Father was a Gerrer Chosid, does that make you an authority on Chassidus? you should be ashamed of yourself! what kind of warped chinuch did you recieve? I do not ask you or anyone on this forum to become a Lubavitcher Chassid, nor do I care what you think, nor do I even delude myself that there is not very valid criticisms of many in Chabad, nor would it bother me if anyone were to ask questions about my Rebbes opinions and teachings, but to write words like that? on what basis? you met a few nut cases or misguided lunatics and you judge a whole Eidah? would you judge other communities similarly.
I totally understand the troubling Moshiach issues and its difficulties. I am the total opposite of a Moshichist, I and my friends and all that I associate with oppose it and will not allow any of their philosophy in our shuls, we have instructed young men who have desired to engage our congregants to leave the shul and we do not allow placement of any publications mailed to us, I also have read recently on another popular Blog where to my surprise a seemingly non chabad writer asked the self proclaimed “Halachist specialist” Blog master if there is anything in pure Halacha that would oppose believing that a person dead or alive is Moshiach, and to my amazement this honest and fearless blog master kept on refusing to answer, until he was seemingly forced to write that admittedly Halacha does not find anything wrong with that position, But its wrong and dangerous and etc etc. because its against the Torah and could lead to other problems. Without even realizing that this exact position was the reason all the Gedolim of yesteryear were vehmently against the MO rabbinate, including RYBS, and others, becasue it could lead…
I and multitudes of my colleagues, who BTW, bear the brunt of the justified backlash of the group of Meshichisten around, tend to flocks of Yidden, teach them Torah, introduce them to HKBH and his Mitzvot, in many cases seeing them continue on their journey in another more established community. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, the shmutz I read in this blog and others, is shameful. Learn a little about Chabad and its Rabbis, open up a Sefer of The Rebbe in its source, not what some former student or dropout or single person interprets his words. Realize that as with any discipline especially mystical, one has to understand the context and vocabulary used. Visit a Chabad House or two, and look at the type of Far Far off Jews on the front line these Rabbis have to deal with in way off communities and see what they have to work with. See how they live financially, see what it takes to educate their children properly, the hours and expense incurred to do car pool to the city etc. the mesirus for life in a foreign environment then try to emulate them and do something positive.
I know I went too long. But enough is enough! you cannot continue to murder an entire Eidah Kedosha on lies.
Moishe Weiss
Comment by Moishe Weiss — February 6, 2008 @ 2:45 am
>b)Will Mordechai (comment at 12.56) please provide sources for his (non-existent) citations of Tanya and the “story” about the Lubavitch Rebbe’s childhood?
I am not a great baki in Tanya so I can not verify the assertion but I can say that it does not ring true. Without a specific citation, it is not worth much.
Further, I highly doubt you will find any such verifiable story. For one thing, the Rebbe Zt”l’s father was an independent mekubal, more of a contemporary of the Rebbe Rashab than a chassid of him. He used to give his own maamarim, something that, in chabbad, is reserved for the Rebbe. There was an underlying tension between the families which is probably why the Rebbe never met the Rebbe Rashab. It is also impossible that the Rebbe Raayatz instructed the Rebbe’s father in anything when the Rebbe was only 3 years old. As I said, the chabbad Rebbe at the time was the Rebbe Rashab who passed away when the Rebbe was 18 years old (in 1920). The Rebbe Raayatz was NOT highly regarded during these years as a great leader of any sort. Some even predicted at the time that the lubavitch line would end with the Rebbe Rashab (see R’ Bezalel Naor’s excelent introduction to “God’s Middlemen: A Habad Retrospective”, isbn 188399117X). The idea that the Rebbe’s father would take any such advice from the Rebbe Raayatz is absurd.
Comment by Chareidi Leumi — February 6, 2008 @ 4:29 am
I do not want to enter into a long debate but there are few points that need some clarification.
1. No one in Chabad has ever heard of Eli Soble. After some investigation its seems he is a guy from a frum family, who drifted a bit and is now a baal teshuva. He works in business and daavens in a Chabad Shul. He is not a thinker, a player or has any role in the Chabad in any official or unofficial way. The Post was quite diseengenous by labeling him in their byline “active in the movement educational programs” He is not.
2. Now on the she said/he said. Is there some great underlying insidious philosophy that threatens the Jewish world. What there is is Chassidim debating and arguing trying to remain Chassidim after as we guys call it Gimmel Tammuz, (the Rebbe’s passing). Attempting to remain connected to the teachings and ideals of the Rebbe in a confusing time. So we have all kinds of expressions of that connection. Some sadly have distorted, and misquoted, as Eli Soble did, the Rebbe’s talks and teachings to a place that the Rebbe profundly did not agree with. For instance when I asked the Rebbe directly about identifying someone is Moshiach he unequivocally rejected it.
Last night I went to a Farbrengen to celebrate the birthday of a Chabad Schliach in California. At the table where local bala batim (anash in our lingo), Shluchim, and some others. From the group of 25 or 30 in the room I could only identify one Moshchist in the lot. He is quite sane, a Yirash Shmayim, does not believe in half of what Soble wrote, goes to the Ohel to daaven, (which means he fully recognizes that the Rebbe passed away on Gimmel Tammuz). This guy believes in Gemara in Sanhedrin that indicates that there is Shitah in Torah that says Moschiach can come from those who are not alive. He is mehader in kol siman of Shulchan Aruch etc. etc. But what really drives him( and I know him well and constantly say nu, when are you going to to drop your crazy ideas) is he is searching for way to be a Chassid.
So you can find a guy to write an article of put up a poster on a wall. But I think the group last night was quite representative of most Chabad communities at least in the US.
3. I am deeply insulted by Toby Katz’s words of of “poison”. I run a Chabad Center in California, and have hundreds of friends who are Shluchim who do the same. And while people sit comfortable in Lakewood and B’nai Brak they sacrifice every day to teach Torah, raising their kids in difficult lonely places for the sake of Yiddiskiet. What we do is to teach Torah, Halacha, Gemara with Chassdidesh insight. There is nothing except Torah and Halacha. Soble ideas have no role, his corruption of the Rebbe’s words no place. It may be that Chassideshe kvetch that so troubles Katz and others. It seems the enmity of centuries of Misnahgdim has raised its ugly head again on this blog.
Dovid Eliezrie
Comment by Dovid Eliezrie — February 6, 2008 @ 11:58 am
Many thanks for posts 16-17-18. Words of truth spoken to the point. Unfortunately, though, for the antagonists who bash Chabad, and invariable haven’t a clue about it beyond the well-known propaganda and “party-line” of certain sources, and are fully blinded and deafened by these, the basic principle of “kabel et ha’emet mimi she’omro”is unknown - and the laws of “loshon hora” and “motzi shem ra” are twisted and convoluted to justify their calumnies. But fortunately, in the end, netzach Yisrael lo yeshaker!
Comment by Aaron Feldman — February 6, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
As an avid fan of Toby’s comments and as a Lubavitcher chosid, I understood Toby’s comments in the context of a “v’im timtzo loymar” rather than her stating a halachik opinion on such. (which she would never, as an orthodox woman, have the chutzpa to do)
Comment by Levi — February 6, 2008 @ 8:30 pm
Rabbi Eliezrie writes that “Soble’s ideas have no role, his corruption of the Rebbe’s words no place.” Even if Soble is an independant operator, a loose cannon who, on his own initiative, sent a piece to the Jerusalem Post, his ideas are hardly unique or even extreme within Chabad. Some years ago, Kehot Publications, the official Chabad publishing house, published a volume “The Time For Your Redemption Has Arrived.” It was a collection excerpts of the Rebbe’s speeches and writings designed to convey the impression that the Rebbe believed he was Moshiach, and that he would favor Jews regarding him as such even after his petirah. Kehot also publishes the Siddur Tehillas HaShem, and I remember one edition published after the petirah, in which was printed a statement declaring the Rebbe was and is Moshiach. I have seen meshichist posters in both Oholei Menachem, the Lubavitcher cheder in Crown Heights, and the yeshiva building on Crown Street and Albany Avenue. There are meshichisten who have had important positions in the Chabad hierarchy. While I won’t get into a discussion as to what proportion of Chabad is meshichist, I would argue that it is there, it is noticable and significant, and that it permeates a part of the official organs of Chabad.
Even Rabbi Eliezrie has admitted “we do have meshcistim” (Cross Currents post October 21, 2007). It’s time to admit that they are more than just a extremist fringe element.
Comment by Lawrence M. Reisman — February 7, 2008 @ 10:27 am
Rabbi Moshe Weiss wrote:
“…enough is enough! you cannot continue to murder an entire Eidah Kedosha on lies.”
Rabbi Weiss, some, including myself, want desperately to see the good in Chabad. But instead of truly owning up to the issues, all we hear is “stop picking on us”. You have to take responsibilty. Not only for the meshichist stuff but for the entire way in which Chabad has been conducting itself for years. Are you not aware that most frum people find it insufferable when Chabad attempts to make them Frum? Where is the kavod for other drachim? You seem to think that the criticisms are based on hearsay, mere lashon hara from people that never stepped in a Chabad house. But we ALL know Chabad first hand.
Comment by Michoel — February 7, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
If Chabad is the meanace that some of the commenters say it is, then I would look for a psak by the RCA, the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of the Agudath, or at least a psak by a promienent posek. They would say that Chabad is not part of Judaism, that it is assur to daven in their shuls, etc. But, it hasn’t happened, as far as I can tell. Therefore, I will continue to daven in their shuls when I travel (even though the big photo of the rebbe in the lobby of each shul makes me uncomfortable), and I will continue to admire their outreach work and caring for each Jew.
Comment by YM — February 7, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
Some years ago, Kehot Publications, the official Chabad publishing house, published a volume “The Time For Your Redemption Has Arrived.” It was a collection excerpts of the Rebbe’s speeches and writings designed to convey the impression that the Rebbe believed he was Moshiach, and that he would favor Jews regarding him as such even after his petirah.
Abslutely untrue, and another attempt to discredit mainstream Chabad. The only volume by that name a)was not published by Kehot, but by Machon Lubavitch in Israel (1991, 2nd ed. 1992). b) Part One deals with the Rebbe’s expositions on the themes of Mashiach, ge’ulah, Rambam’s Hilchot Melachim (on these themes), and Part Two is citations from the whole range of (non-Chabad) gedolei Yisrael on anticipating the Messianic redemption.
There is not even the slightest hint in the whole volume to any of the things you mention.
Kehot also publishes the Siddur Tehillas HaShem, and I remember one edition published after the petirah, in which was printed a statement declaring the Rebbe was and is Moshiach.
Again falsehood. Nothing ever published by Kehot contains any of these things. For a while, after the Rebbe’s petirah, there was a rogue Meshichist outfit that republished official Kehot editions of sidur and other sefarim, using the Kehot logo, and inserted their nonsense. Kehot took them to court (as they refused to go to Bet Din) to protect their logo as a legal trademark, and the court ruled that all their remaining
copies (of all their publicationsof Chabad works) were to be confiscated and issuing an injunction against them to do so again. They tried to do so again in Israel, but there too same injunction was issued against them.
I have seen meshichist posters in both Oholei Menachem, the Lubavitcher cheder in Crown Heights, and the yeshiva building on Crown Street and Albany Avenue.
Correct, even as you see them in 770 and elsewheres. There definitely are meshichist elements in these institutions, even as there are anti-meshichist elements. These are not official proclamations.
There are meshichisten who have had important positions in the Chabad hierarchy.
I don’t know what you mean by “Chabad hierarchy”. Please be more specific. Secondly, even if correct, the operative word is your own reference to “have had.”
No one denies that there is a meshichist group, especially in Crown Heights and in certain places in Israel. What else is new? The point is that you are trying to smear and denigrate a whole movement and their activities. Korach was a great man, and attracted 250 prominent leaders - did that cast aspersions on the whole nation? And do you know how many genuine gedolei Yisrael, whose Torah we study to this day, originally signed on with Shabatai Tzvi? Therefore????
It’s time that the ledig-geyers who utilize every opportunity to bash Chabad finally get a life. Their motivation is not the Mashiach-issue, for they bashed Chabad way before that became a bone of contention. Their pretense of “caring for Yiddishkeit and Torah” rings more than hollow when noting their abundant violations of the halachot of lashon hara and motzi shem ra. They will not and can not stop Chabad and its work throughout the world, thus are merely preaching to their own choir, which in plain terms simply means the additional violation of devarim beteilim. If you really care, then go out and set up your own mosdot to spread Yiddishkeit - not by negating others but by glorifying the Torah! Even on their assumption that Chabad is wrong, remember the adage of the rishonim that you can’t fight darkness except by bringing light - the ner mitzvah veTorah or!
Yaakov
Comment by Yaakov — February 7, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
a few short (Bli Neder…) comments.
to post 20. - don’t know you, I cannot understand how you can take her comments (and as an avid fan, you know of the others) in any other context than what they were. poison. She clearly wasn’t presenting another possible theoretical view, go back and read the comment and the ones following and concurring, (even using hilchos Taaruvos). If you, as a Lubavitcher, are being Mekarev Yidden, She is saying you are including poison and Sheker into your kiruv.
to post 22. your thoughtful post merits a few important counterpoints. there ARE Moshichisten in Chabad, and in Crown Heights, and they are very vocal and aggressive that is the serious problem. If they would be meek and shy it would not have reached these serious proportions. These elements have attempted to do many things including publishing, in official Chabad name and to project the impression that they are representing official Chabad policy.
To Chabad leadership credit, and probably not known, are the lawsuits regarding copyright and official “Kehot” logo, and the succesful prosecution of groups called “Otzar” causing them to refrain from things. Possibly they re the group that publishd ” the time etc.” To my knowledge, I am not aware of such an edition of the siddur, even one (since banned and my understanding is, that there are thousands sitting in a basement in crown heights) printed illigelly by “Otzar” contained something like yechi. In Israel today, there have been numerous posters and ads in mainstream Chabad journals (like Kfar Chabad magazine) from Bais Din Rabbonei Chabad prohibiting anybody especially other Rabbis from setting policy and exhorting the public to ignore unofficial proclamations.
As one who is extremely knowledgable in Chabad I can tell you that, in Chabad hierarchy, the highest level is that of Shliach. They are the elite, even many Rabbonim are official Shluchim, witness Rav Yossi Shusterman of Chabd Beverly Hills. For the most part, with admitted minority exception, the Shluchim and those “on top”, such as Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Kotlarsky and Rabbi Shemtov are notoriously anti Moshichist, and in fact terribly villkified and feared by the Moshichisten as they have been at the forefront of the succesful legal battles against these elements.
to post 22. I have been informed today, of correspondence that I personally have seen, that to the contrary, the above organizations, while they do have very legitimate questions and concerns regarding the extent of the Moshichist attitude prevalent in Chabad, are in fact against any sort of condemnation of Chabad, quite the opposite, they are aware of many of the above points I’ve made, recognize the tremendous work of Chabad in communities worldwide, and are desirious to clarify the issues and continue a good working relationship with the legitimate and responsible elements of Chabad. Hopefully this will come out in the near future.
Moishe Weiss
Comment by Moishe Weiss — February 7, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
Sorry to bother with the facts. After Gimmel Tammuz the Meshichistim attempted to create their own publishing using the name of the Lubavithcher publishing house Kehot. They claimed that they are Chabad. Chabad then went to court successfully to stop them from using the the emblem and trademark of Kehot. The siddur that Mr. Reisman is refering to, and if I recall correctly the book on redemption were both published by this renegade group before Kehot prevailed in court. Since them the group has become defunct.
The Meshichistim have been dramatically marginalized. They have no roles in the leadership. None of them serve on the boards that run Chabad. Be it Merkos L’Inyonie Chinuch, which oversees the international network of Schluchim, Agudas Chassidei Chabad Haolomis which is mandated to oversee the Chabad communty, or Vaad Rabbonie Lubavtich Haclali which serves as the Beis Din for the movement. They not given positions in Schlichus, their views are banned from the conventions of the Shluchim and Shluchos.
And wso e are back to the old “he said/she said”. As I wrote before anyone can put up a poster on a building. Its the people who run the multi million dollar institutions who carry the true weight. You guys find a guy like Soble who has no role in Chabad and say “ah I caught you”. We wonder who Soble is and know he has no influence. You guys find a sign on Kingston avenue and gee wiz it must mean that this is the truth. And we sue these characters to minimize their influence.
And Mr. Reisman is right. I did say that we have Meshistim in Chabad. but I can not admit what is not true. They are not running the store. And if you talk to them you find that they feel marginalized and pushed aside.
So I wonder what to you guys want. As I told once a top leader of Aguda the hostility to Chabad predates the Moshiach issue. Lets get real we differed on many issues, limud Hachassidus, the strategy for Jewish survival, how to deal with the broader Jewish world, Kiruv, ( now we have the absurd assertion by the the Litvasher world claiming they created it.), Eretz Yisroel-Shalimus Haaretz, lifetime Colel and other issues. Chabad took a different approach then much of the Yeshivish world. What better to say “guess what we know it all along these guys are beyond the pale. and now we discovered this nefarious theological agenda and they are poison etc.”.
It would be a lot wiser for the Yeshivas community to debate the real issues. Then we can deal with substance instead of theological blood libels.
Dovid Eliezrie
Comment by Dovid Eliezrie — February 7, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Rabbis Weiss and Eliezerie,
You are both in Southern California. Are you denying that the main Chabad institutions on the West Coast are run by overt Meshichistim?
Perhaps I am confused by the definition of Meshichistim.
Comment by mb — February 7, 2008 @ 8:08 pm
mb- Chabad of California is headed by HaRav Boruch Shlomo Eliyahu Cunin who is definitely NOT a Moshichist. Although I don’t own a (connected) Television set, but I believe that on the much celebrated telethon, which he (and his staff) successfully produce annually, there would be an opportunity in those six hours to amply “spread the word” and not one word of “Yechi” or other buzz words is mentioned not one picture not one slogan - NOTHING. I am even amazed at the allegation, it shows you have absolutely no idea who you’re dealing with.
Nevertheless, do not confuse Moshichism with a strong and healthy belief in the imminent coming of Moshiach and the constant spiritual influence a Chossid has of his Rebbe which Rabbi Cunin, as indeed I would expect from every Jew ( and chosid re rebbe), has. He literally lives his life inspired by those beliefs, and to great success as is well apparent.
The other main figure in California is HaRav HaGaon R’ Ezra Shochet Shlita who is well known for his vehement opposition to anything even smelling of Moshichism, a former talmid went to another yeshiva and became a moshichist, Rabbi Shochet will not talk to him and ejected him from the Yeshiva when he comes to visit. I myself was present years ago when a speaker spoke, quite innocuosly I thought, on the subject and Rabbi Shochet jumped out of his chair and literally had the speaker sit down.
The Rov is Rabbi Shusterman of Beverly Hills, not anything Moshichist there.
The other main Shluchim, Rabbi Gordon, Rabbi Eliezrie, Rabbi Hecht, Rabbi Fradkin (of S. Diego) etc. are all opposed completely to Moshichisten and Moshiachism. And are not ashamed to say it.
So, the short answer is yes I deny it, and so would you if you even bothered to speak with them. If you had the honesty to admit that you don’t even know them.
Due to editorial mix up, I will reluctantly reply to Michoel post 22. { as the number 22 I mentioned was not him it was really nos. 21 and 23.}
Michoel: all I have to “take responsibility” is myself, my family, and my Kehilla. Although I learnt in yeshiva that we are to a certain extent all responsible for one another, I am no more responsible for what goes on in “Lubavitch”, arguably one of the top three largest Jewish organizations around, than a talmid of YU or Lakewood is responsible for whatever actions a graduate of those institutions commits.
I’m only slightly amused, one one Blog I’m accused (Since I’m as Lubavitch as you can get, when they say “Chabad” it’s me)of not even being Jewish let alone Frum, I’m told that we are begrudgingly tolerated as a part of Klal Yisrael, My Shechita and wine is seriously questioned. and you here accuse me of preaching to frum yidden to be more frum! which is it? You can’t have it both ways.
Finally, I highly doubt you know Chabad at all, let alone first hand. I doubt you even know anything about Chabad first hand. So I will reiterate what I wrote above. Take the time to visit a few Chabad Shuls, incognito, see if what I am saying is true, and then lets talk. I’m that confident.
I neglected to mention this above. When I was in Kolel in NY, I wanted, for various reasons, to get to know and understand what YU really is about. I heard so many various contrasts. So I took a train and spent a couple of days wandering around the YU campus in Washington Heights. I spoke to the students and some Rebbeim. I bought around a hundred tapes of Rav Hershel Shechter (which are fascinating) and I saw what I needed to see. ever since, I have developed a fascination for the Rav’s Torah, I own all his Sforim and have a standing order at Biegeleisen for anything that comes out.I own over a hundred tapes (ask Nordlicht) and can quote shiurim and Drashos of the Rav better than most YU grads. I devoured all the books about YU and the Rav that exist (Rakeffet, Lamm, R’ Shechter, etc) and to top it off I have around 250 tapes of Rabbi Rakeffet-Rothkoff who everybody knows treats the Rav like a Chabadnik treats the Rebbe. I understand the philosophy and issues better than most. and I have made what I feel is an educated decision of what the world of YU etc. is. Nobody can fool me and Nobody can con me. I know it.
I wish, some of the truly well meaning writers and valid honest critics would do something close to that. They obviously care deeply (good or bad) about Chabad, it bothers them it weighs them down. There is deep philosophy here, why the Rebbe wanted Shluchim to go out to all corners, Why the Rebbe kept on relentlessly pushing the Moshiach concepts. I don’t need you to agree with it, but at least, if you are going to write about it, try to learn it. Try to understand it. Then you will at least have an educated decision.
BTW, Michoel, I was fortunate enough to grow up in a home, where every Godol every Rebbe was respected. My Father was friendly with Rav Shneor Kotlar, Rav Moshe, Rav Berel Shwartzman and Rav Gedalia Shorr to name just a few, as well as all Rebbe of Chassidus who stayed in our home and made theri Tishes there Friday Night. Im not sure negating another Derech is unique and exclusive among Chabad, it all depends on how you educate your children and students. My children and congregants hear Direi Torah across the Gamut (some of my best Drashos stem form sayings and stories of the Ponovitcher Rov ZT”L, one of my heroes - who BTW the Rebbe praises highly in his letters)I wonder how do you or will you educate YOUR children?
Moishe Weiss
Comment by Moishe Weiss — February 7, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
IT is high time for the respected and valuable lubavitcher rabbis to stop the reaction “the old misnagdim” and see the issues that most jewry rejected for thousands of years, the identification of a deceased person in particular as THE messiah. It is a fact and just as you wish to be respected in your positions you should respect the belief of jews for thousands of years. (it was muksteh machmas mius to say the least)
Likewise, it is time for you to realize that people interact with lubavitchers in REAL life and not only on blogs. THey know and see how meshichistim have infiltrated chabad and their message is heard and not the the corporation lubavitch.
FOr all the talk an anger writing, can they point to a choshuver person in chabad that decried the position of the meshichistin in terms of theri theological positions? Please do not come back with the long articles about denying the denial of the passin of the REbbe. IT is a shame that 35% or more of the movement holds a position that there was no passing and other 25% feel that this position should be respected.
BUt more to the point; You will NOT find a choshuver person in chabad telling *their* own people or even telling the world at large how they differ with the meshichist positions on issues about MASHIACH IDENTITY. And please; do not tell me about those who state that these provlmations should not be made in public becuase they are not for “public consumption”. What is wanted is to see how CHOSHUVER RABBI was allowed to state that there is no basis to identify the Rebbe as the mashiach.
YOu can see; DR. berger wrote an article and the BOteachand then Soble. All of you in the corporation Lubavitch claim “‘who is this Soble…?” you know what; You have so much power and connections and RAbbi ELiezrie at times wrote in JPOSt why don’t we see some of the choshuver rAbbis writing that SOble post are untrue and explain publicly how they were distorted? why don’t the youth in chabad know in their yeshiva how the meshichstm are wrong about their interpretations of the Rebbes talks in these matters? why are they not given the explanation why many jews have a riht to feel that these beleifs are wrong? Why do you educate them that this is all “misnagsihe hate? Why is that “hate” and your educatin them about the lack of yidishkeyt at others frum jews “love” and ‘the list goes on…
Yes, you do tremendous work. Messirut nefesh. but that is not a carte blanche excuse for creating a new religion or poohpooin those who decry the birth of a forein beleif in judaism.
HAve the courage to write in jPOSt as a lubavitch speaker explaining how they are wrong and you will do a service for your cause more than coming here an other bloa and condeming all your critics as “haters” and adding enmity and sinah and divisness as opposed to ahavat yirael that you claim to be to carry a your man mssion.
Comment by Omer — February 8, 2008 @ 1:14 am
Rabbi Meken:
You write: “Perhaps the fact that the JPost could find no more prominent an authority than a “former rabbinical student” who is “active in the movement’s educational work” to declare the departed Rebbe the Messiah is a hopeful sign.”
The point is that you cannot find ANY spokesperson or authority figure in Lubavitch to say the following: “The Rebbe is NOT and WILL NEVER BE the Messiah.”
Dovid Eliazrie says: “I wonder what you guys want.”
Well, what I want is for you to say: “The Rebbe is NOT and WILL NEVER BE the Moshiach.” That is the definition of an anti-Meshichist.
Moishe Weiss: Most of what you say is entirely untrue, and I will note that you say “I am the opposite of a Meshichist.” But you do not say, “The Rebbe is NOT and WILL NEVER BE the Messiah.”
mb: No, you are not confused about the definition of a meshichist. The ones who are confused and Dovid Eliezrie and Moishe Weiss. Their definition of an anti-Meshichist does not require that someone rejects the Rebbe as a viable candidate for Moshiach.
Comment by nachum klafter, md — February 8, 2008 @ 2:19 am
I taught in a Lubavitch school in Melbourne Australia (Bais Rivka H.S.) for three years in the 1980’s — I was the only non-Lubavitcher on the kodesh staff. I got to know a lot about Lubavitch then, and what an eye-opener it was. My husband has Lubavitch cousins in Postville and my brother in law went there for a family bar mitzva — another eye-opener. Now I live in North Miami Beach, surrounded by numerous Lubavitchers,and have been to quite a few ladies’ gatherings and seen quite a bit of Chabad literature and heard amazing things. I could write a book about every false thing that I have heard stated in the name of Chabad, the list is a mile long.
But for now I will mention just one: I have heard MANY times from Lubavitchers that “To be a chossid you MUST believe your rebbe is Moshiach. If your father didn’t believe that the Gerrer Rebbe was Moshiach then he wasn’t really a Gerrer chossid.”
Falsely stating that “all chasidim believe their rebbe is Moshiach” they then go on to argue that the only difference between Chabad and every other chassidus is “WHO IS THE REAL MOSHIACH?” and bring evidence that the Lubavitcher Rebbe has a far greater claim than the Gerrer, Bobover, or Satmarer Rebbe. If I say that no other chassidim make this claim about their rebbe, they look at me pityingly, thinking that I obviously don’t know anything about chassidus.
I have also heard some Lubavitchers state with equal conviction that not only other chassidim, but also Litvaks and Sefardim, believe that their Rosh Yeshiva or their Rav is Moshiach, and they bring a Gemara to “prove” that ALL Jews have ALWAYS believed their rebbe/rav/leader is Moshiach. And again, the only argument is, who has the best claim among all the competing candidates?
A closely related statement that I have heard too many times to count, from Lubavitchers in many places, is: In order to fulfill the mitzva of “believing in Moshiach” — in order to say “Ani Ma’amin” sincerely — you MUST have a particular candidate in mind. If you do not have someone in mind, you have not fulfilled the mitzva of “believing in Moshiach.” I heard this, for example, in a lecture given by an extremist Lubavitcher woman here in NMB on the supposed “halachos of believing in Moshiach.”
If you say you don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, they challenge you with, “So who IS Moshiach?” and if you then respond, “I have no idea” they come back with, “Then you do not believe in Moshiach at all.”
In particular I have heard numerous Lubavitchers say that David Berger “obviously” does not believe in Moshiach.
Unfortunately I know a LOT about Chabad and have read a lot, and I have a lot of Lubavitcher relatives, and a LOT of Lubavitcher friends and neighbors. I was also at a number of farbrengens in Crown Heights when the Rebbe was still alive (and yes, I understand Yiddish)and once spent Simchas Torah there in the early ’70’s. Chabad has changed tremendously since then (although there were some subtle hints even then of things to come.)
It is impossible for you to tell me that they are not teaching small bits of sheker all the time, along with the truly outstanding work they do. I am very conflicted about all this, because I do honor them for what they do and I do acknowledge that no one else has people out in the field all over the world doing the work they do with such mesirus nefesh. The sheker is so small in comparison. Does it really matter? Does it matter if they teach “To believe in Moshiach you must have in mind an actual person, a name and a face”?
And many Lubs do NOT teach that, but only say, “Nu, what’s so bad about teaching that? Is it the end of the world if the picture of someone comes into my mind when I say Ani Ma’amin bevias hamoshiach?”
Well, is it so bad?
Variations are, “If you don’t believe, you are delaying the Ge’ulah” and “So what if he said that, is it such a big deal? Does it undo all the chessed and mitzvos he does?”
BTW I know someone who left Chabad over these issues, but who was mekareved by R’Eliezrie and continues to regard him as his rebbe, and continues to speak of him with great respect and reverence. This person tells me that R’ Eliezrie is definitely not a meshichist and also told me that if the other Lubavitchers he had come across were like Rav Eliezrie, he would still be a Lubavitcher.
The final straw that caused him to make the break was a trip to 770 a couple of years ago.
Comment by Toby Katz — February 8, 2008 @ 3:27 am
Rabbis Weiss and Eliezrie:
Have your organizations worked with any organizations led by Shmuel Butman or distributed his or their materials?
Comment by Bob Miller — February 8, 2008 @ 8:07 am
“After Gimmel Tammuz the Meshichistim attempted to create their own publishing using the name of the Lubavithcher publishing house Kehot. They claimed that they are Chabad. Chabad then went to court successfully to stop them from using the the emblem and trademark of Kehot. The siddur that Mr. Reisman is refering to, and if I recall correctly the book on redemption were both published by this renegade group before Kehot prevailed in court.”
Which court and when? If this is the case, then I was definitely wrong as to the issue. However, I would like to look at the court records.
“As I told once a top leader of Aguda the hostility to Chabad predates the Moshiach issue. Lets get real we differed on many issues, limud Hachassidus, the strategy for Jewish survival, how to deal with the broader Jewish world, Kiruv, ( now we have the absurd assertion by the the Litvasher world claiming they created it.), Eretz Yisroel-Shalimus Haaretz, lifetime Colel and other issues. Chabad took a different approach then much of the Yeshivish world.”
No dispute there. And I will be the first to admit that Chabad was not only right about the kiruv issue, but changed the mindset of all Orthodoxy in the process (and I said as much in a letter to the Jewish Press published in its June 29, 2007 edition). However, as with any other group of human beings, Chabad has had its failures and shortcomings, and its adherents have shown a tendancy to exagerate the achievements, downplay the shortcomings and failures, and denigrate the very real contributions of others. And please don’t label me prejudiced against Chabad. I have had a 36 year long relationship starting with my college years in Cleveland. In the past 15 years, I have volunteered my time and efforts getting federal income tax exemptions for two Chabad houses in Ohio, Chabad of Cyberspace (where Yossi Kazen put me on his board of directors), and one other organization. I have donated time, money, and books to Rabbi & Mrs. Kazen’s Chabad house in Beechwood, Ohio. So when I speak, I speak objectively.
Comment by Lawrence M. Reisman — February 8, 2008 @ 9:04 am
May I point out what appears to be a logical inconsistency? Almost everybody here accepts the importance of kiruv - guiding Jews who are far from the Torah and its Mitzvot into greater observance. This is true regardless of how far away they begin, and whether or not they are showing any progress. I think the underlying assumption is that if G-d keeps somebody alive, that person is capable of spiritual growth.
This isn’t just empty talk, either. I am Heterodox and I am not shy about my non Halachic thoughts and actions. We get into many arguments, but no fights. You all make me feel welcome here. You truly and really believe in kiruv.
You see the potential in an intemarried Shabbat descecrator like me, and you realize that friendship and gentle persuasion are the best way forward. Anything else would drive me away.
Chabbad Meshichistim are a lot closer to Orthodoxy than I am, both in terms of behavior and beliefs. If you think that friendly kiruv is the right way to respond to me, why isn’t it the right way to respond to them? OK, so they make a mistake about the Mashiach - how is that different from Rabbi Akiva’s, except for the fact that when Chabbadniks make that mistake nobody dies?
Comment by Ori — February 8, 2008 @ 10:43 am
“Well, is it so bad?”
I would think that the cutoff point where it is “so bad” is when they come across with statements like so “…’so an so don’t really beleive n moshiach”. Then it crossed their line an motto of Ahavas Yisrael. Then all teachings that lead to this (meaning all sheker) are to “so bad”.
Comment by Omer — February 8, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
I for one do not believe that to be a Chassid than you must believe your Rebbe is Moshiach. And I think that this is not the issue of a ‘new religion” but rather the struggle about how to be a Chassid after Gimmel Tammuz. And while some here want all kinds of ideological statements the issues are much more gray and confusing.
As for Shmuel Butman, his actions on behalf of the Meshichistim marginalized from the Chabad establishment. Due to my public condemnation of him in the New York Times he will not even say hello to me. He has no real influence in the movement or leadership role.
The court case was if I recall correctly Kehot Publication Society or Merkos against Ozar Sifrie Lubavitch. I don’t know in what court but I do know that Ozar lost big time and the judge ordered all the books taken off the market. I could attempt to find out, email me privately and I will try: rabbi@ocjewish.com
There is no question that in Chabad we are guilty as other groups of seeing our own accomplishments and downplaying others. In fact I wrote an article in the a Chabad magazine about two years ago about how the how the Litvahser world, artscroll, feldheim etc. and in particular Rabbis Dovid Goldwasser & Berel Wein, and others have rewritten recent Jewish history to exclude Chabad. In the piece I stated that Chabad does the same not recognizing the accomplishments of others in the Orthodox world.
To me Chabad is what the Rebbe taught and lived. His ideals and principles. In my mind these are Kodesh. Sadly many have distorted these teachings, be in in the struggle to be a Chassid, looking for ways of connection. Most are guilty of a bit to much enthusiasm and passion in the wrong direction. Their ideas have foundation in Torah, as much as I may disagree with them.
I still think the real divisions between Chabad and the Litvahse Yeshiva world are deeper and rooted in other issues. As I heard yesterday a certain Litvashe Gadol telling a Talmid in a major Yeshiva that was learning Chassidus during the Mussar time while his friend was reading the New York Times. “At least the Times is true”.
Dovid Eliezrie
Comment by Dovid Eliezrie — February 8, 2008 @ 1:49 pm
“I have also heard some Lubavitchers state with equal conviction that not only other chassidim, but also Litvaks and Sefardim, believe that their Rosh Yeshiva or their Rav is Moshiach” (Toby Katz)
Back in the 70’s, years before this whole thing even started, I heard from a Rosh Yeshiva a prediction that Chabad would become a religious problem, eventually. His reasoning? Very simple, he said- If there was an incontrovertible Bat-Kol from heaven that Chacham X was Moshiach, or the X Rebbe, or the X Litvish Rav, every Jew in the world would accept it…EXCEPT CHABAD, who would not accept it unless their Rebbe was named.
Does anyone disagree? I don’t think so!
Comment by Yossi Ginzberg — February 8, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
I’ve said what I have to say, I’ll let the readers judge. judging from the plethora of private emails I’ve recieved in the last two days, from people
I don’t even know (I assume Non-Lubs.) I think I accomplished what I intended to.
I will only quote the following from Nachum Klafter, a very strange statement from one who I thought (as evidenced by his recent pontifications on other Blogs) seems to value honesty and integrity.
I quote:
“Most of what you say is entirely untrue, and I will note that you say “I am the opposite of a Meshichist.” But you do not say, “The Rebbe is NOT and WILL NEVER BE the Messiah.”
I’d demand to know:
1) what I said exactly that is untrue, I was describing myself and my beliefs and activities. I did so very honestly, and with true candor, check me out. People probably know me. I am just as good an example of what Lubavitch produced and does, as anybody, I studied exclusively in Chabad upper schools, I went on Shlichus and I do what I think is what my Rebbe wanted me to do, and I feel that I, and many of my close friends, understand and believe to be My Rebbes viewpoint on many critical issues, and I live my life accordingly.
you made a strong statement, back it up.
your Second statement is even more Bizarre. Insulting even. Why in the world do I have to proclaim anything?? Why, for example, would I have to say, “I am not an Idol worshiper”? what Chutzpah! what gives you or anyone else the right to judge others you don’t even know? who do you, or anyone else here, think they are, to judge me or any other Chabadnik, whom they have absolutely no idea who they are or what they believe? or what they’ve accomplished and how many Jewish lives they’ve touched? If you feel, as I’ve heard others do, that every Lubavitcher Chosid, even a learned shomer Torah and Mitzvos, not to mention a Rov, has to appear before a Bais Din and proclaim that he is… well then, you, my friend are a large part of a hideous problem, then there truly is a witch hunt and you’re the witch.
all this is besides the point, Its laughable. I went out of my way, and said, I am not a Meshichist, and I describe at great length what I don’t allow or do in my Shul, What type of publications and speakers I will NOT allow, etc etc as I wrote EXTENSIVELY above, I assume you know how to read? So in your opinion, thats not enough, I need to “proclaim” something, Maybe have it written signed and notarized? then I assume you will say (ala’ Katz) that I have a “little” just a little Sheker and I’m not telling the truth anyways, and I don’t really understand what a Moshichist is etc. where does it stop?
To give an example of how childish you sound, and forgive me if I am out of line here, I mean no disrespect, truly. I only mean it for illustration sake. Would anyone expect every Rabbi associated with NCSY or Yeshiva Torah Temimna, wonderfully fine institutions, who have done great things, a few years back to proclaim, “I am NOT a … in order to stay “in good standing”?
Lubavitch IS doing more than most realize to combat “Moshichism”, and they have had success. unfortunately the battle is far from over.
BTW, this will also serve to answer post Number 29, Omer, (hint -use the spell check and edit feature) if you bother to read my posts above you will see that some very “Choshuver” Rabbonim have taken very public stances to negate “Moshichism”. Rabbis Shochet etc. are as Choshuv as you get.
I am beginning to feel that as I said in the first line of my first post, that to a certain group of people,albeit some with well intended but misguided preconceived notions, nothing I say will ever change their mind.
I am lowering my standards, because quite frankly I’m disgusted with the pontificaters who think they’re sitting on a perch and have a few pages of Gemmoro (or even Tanya) under their gartel, and maybe even know or are related to a few Lubavitchers etc. and they are going to save the world from Lubavitch, although they love and admire them so much.
To Bob Miller - a fair question, I personally have no use or value for anything Rabbi Butman says or does. He does not speak or write on behalf of mainstream Chabad. Certainly not his paid articles in the Jewish press. I believe other Shluchim feel the same, although I recall him to be a talented orator he is never (to my knowledge) asked to speak outside of his limited circles in NYC. I don;t kow if he was allowed into the Shluchim banquet, certainly not in a respected position. so, he’s just another loud mouth talent, who says his opinions.
And here is where it gets very interesting. R’ Butman is ostensibly the director of “Lubavitch Youth”, I’m not even sure of what they do, other than put up a Sukka across from the UN every year, a wonderful thing) they publish the L’Chaim Magazine, that is available from Chabad Lubavitch of cyberspace (thank you Mr. Reisman) and widely distributed even here in California.
I pulled up this weeks edition. the Rebbe is mentioned numerous times as “The Lubavitcher Rebbe” no appendage re Moshiach at all, nothing. Although there are moshiach themes throughout the issue,and a beautiful sicha re the trees Yaakov Avinu planted that were used for the planks in the Mishkan I believe they are well within the range of simply discussing those topics as they relate to the parsha and time of year (Month of Adar etc) even the “Directors” essay only talks about seventh af Adar and the need to “hasten” the coming of Moshiach, clearly in this directors mind Moshiach has NOT come yet.
As everybody knows, and is well publicized, the Lubavitcher Rebbe spoke incessantly about Moshiach, there is no debating that, and people don’t understand the reason, but I don’t believe that is the topic at hand.
Bob, the problem in Chabad is, being an outreach organization at heart and soul, every person feels the need to reach out with his viewpoint. I don’t know if something similar exists in other organizations Aguda for example. the members of Aguda feel perfectly happy to leave matters of publicity in the very capable hands of Rabbi Shafran. Chabad is different, thats the battle the leaders of the organization are faced with.
finally, Mr Reisman, be assured that there was indeed such a court case and injunction, they were actually very talented printers, and their publications (incl. siddurim and Tehillims) were of a very high quality. Something that even anti-moshichists wanted to aquire, nevertheless as I’ve mentioned, for the most part they are sitting in a storehouse somewhere under court injunction forbidding their sale. perhaps a lexus-nexus search would yield the desired case I would input “Kehot” or Merkaz L’inyonei Chinuch vs. Otzar Sifrei Chabad” and see what comes up.
Moishe Weiss
Comment by Moishe Weiss — February 8, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
I have attended Chabad shiurim, Chabad Shabbos services, and even worked for a Chabad organization, and I have never once detected even the slightest inference from a Chabad shliach that the Rebbe is the Messiah. Not once. The only place I have ever heard it discussed is on the web by people who are anti-Chabad.
Some of you are so quick to bash Chabad but clearly know nothing about what is actually going on. Have you thought about the harm your words could do if your words were read by non-frum Jews? How do you think it would be perceived by a Jew in Southern California (an area I know very well) if they stumbled across this post and read all the incorrect things some of you have said about Chabad? There are no other outreach organizations outside of Los Angeles, and yet there are tens of thousands of secular Jews here. If you paint Chabad as believing and teaching things outside of Judaism, you are risking the possibility of ruining the reputation of the only outreach organization available to Jews in many, if not most, parts of the world. You should be one million percent sure that what you are saying is true before you risk tarnishing the only portal through which most secular Jews have to go back to Torah and mitzvot. I know I wouldn’t want to have it on my conscience that I sullied the name of a good kiruv organization and because of my lashon hara even one Jew who would have become frum, didn’t.
Comment by Fern R — February 8, 2008 @ 7:51 pm
Dear Rabbi Weiss,
A few points: 1) Has Rabbi Schochet spoken publicly about this issue the past ten years? Has he written about it the past ten years that we can verify and publicize his writings to the Jpost and others. You will be doing a great service if that is the fact. I haven’t seen nothing about it on this vein in the past years (only perhaps that he attached his name to a booklet that denies and rejects the denial of the Rebbe’s passing).
2) Does R. Butman help subsidize the MItzvah tanks that go around the year in NY? They always have many of them plastered with “yechi…”.
3) Can you point to a particular writing in one of the Chabad public and official magazines (like Kfar Chabad) that explains how the position of the MEshichisn regarding the identity of Maashiach is incorrect (not because it damages the funding, but because it simply incorrect)?
4) I will just reiterate something Rebbetzin KAtz mentioned. I have witnessed. Many of them went further than that. They existed in the real world. Messirat nefesh and good works do NOT excuse Onnaat devarim an machlokess. Attacking the victim of suchoccurrences will not make that go away. THe way to remedy it is to teachan educate your youth how this is wrong (even if you do the wonderful messius nefesh work onaat dvarim and halbanas pney chaveyroy and machlokess are not excused or exonerated by mesirat nefesh).
Comment by Omer — February 9, 2008 @ 7:48 pm
“I have attended Chabad shiurim, Chabad Shabbos services, and even worked for a Chabad organization, and I have never once detected even the slightest inference from a Chabad shliach that the Rebbe is the Messiah. ”
Never? In Southern California? Even Rabbis Weiss and Eliezerie would not deny that Chabad institutions here are rife with Mesichinists.
Comment by mb — February 9, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
First a disclaimer 1)I am not a Mesichist 2)I am a Chabadnic but I speak for myself and in no way am I speaking in a official capacity that represents Lubavitch or anyone else.
I do not know Rabbi Weiss personally but I know about him through my son- in-law who is a Rav and Dayan in Melbourne Australia.
As Rabbi Weiss states very clearly in one of his posts , it is a chutzpa to ask him or Lubavitch in general to have to prove that we are all not Mesichistim and to come out with an official Kol Koreh to that affect.With all due respect, do all the Litveshe Yeshivishe crowd have to declare, by putting an ad in the NY Times’ that they are not Roshei Hayishivos worshipers as many of them are?
The greatest Mesiras Nefesh that most of the Chabad bashers have is what color designer gatges to put on in the morning and they have the audacity to villify Chabad and its Shluchim.
Its interesting to note that Yeshiveshe crowd who normally would look down at Berger because he is a YU graduate and modern Orthodox now use his book profusely in their villification of Chabad.
One more thought.I challenge any of the bashers to come to Crown Heights and and go to ninety nine percent of the Shuls and listen for the words “Yechi………”.The answer is you will not hear these words .The only place its heard is in the headquarters of the lunies downstairs in 770 but not for long.
Comment by Asher Heber — February 10, 2008 @ 2:05 am
To all sides: we are trying to let through most comments, to provide a fair opportunity for all to have their say. But this dialogue could quickly degenerate. Please try to keep it productive.
In response to my other, newer article, a comment asks “Yes the Shulchan Oruch HaRav is a major acharon, but he’s not the only one and the halachah is sometimes not like he says. Is Chabad prepared to acknowledge that?”
If a person has a Rebbe Muvhak (Rebbe in the classical rather than Chassidic sense), and follows his opinion in all areas, then the student is allowed to follow that opinion. I have never heard it argued that the Shulchan Aruch HaRav is a *rejected* opinion, any more than I have heard Gedolim say that Satmar Chassidim shouldn’t follow the shitos of the Satmar Rebbe. If you are claiming that Chassidei Lubavitch must accept that there are other de’os, that is of course true. But you can’t say “the Halachah is not like” the Shulchan Aruch HaRav for his students.
At the same time, some of the Lubavitch writers seem to be spending far too much time and effort denying the existence of a problem obvious to all. For Rabbi (?) Heber to try to compare “Roshei Hayishivos worshipers” is simply silly. Having learned in Lakewood in two countries, the Mir in Yerushalayim, and now having a close connection to many Talmidei Ner Yisroel by living in Baltimore (and all of this after being in Ohr Somayach for over two years), I’m in a good position to question where he found these mysterious worshipers, whether among the Ba’alei Teshuvah or the FFB (Orthodox-born).
Even in terms of hero-worship he’s completely off-base; searching a “Litveshe Yeshivishe” home for a larger-than-life photo of their Rosh Yeshiva would come up empty. You’ll not find a picture of said Rosh Yeshiva on most every wall of a school, much less a continuous video loop of various talks and events at which his presence was recorded.
And unfortunately, in this discussion we are speaking about a limited group who have reached an entirely different level of worship, Avodah Zarah mamash — people who call the Rebbe “Boreinu” and teach children to pray to him (l”a!) and look at his picture before saying Shema. So please keep comments about “worship” out of the conversation unless you intend it in its most literal sense.
There are three reasons why one cannot ask why other groups don’t need to say anything publicly to rebut this, that or the other. First of all, you don’t have a significant sub-population engaging in Rosh Yeshiva-worship, much less any of the other things mentioned, or claiming that they are a positive good. You can claim from today through next week that the Meshichistin are a Miut D’lo Chashivi (insignificant minority), but they are making far too much noise and finding themselves in far too prominent positions for them to simply be ignored. From the people running 770 to the people running Lubavitch in cyberspace (at least around the time of the Rebbe’s passing) to the Director of Chabad Lubavitch of Illinois — who penned a reply to HaRav Keller shlit”a calling all these beliefs “normative” even if he does not share them — there are far too many people claiming this is all completely acceptable, if not desirable, for them not to be shouted down. And who should be doing the loudest shouting, if not those closest to them?
Second, when it comes to what a Rav said, did, or believed, it is simply not true that people don’t rebut. If any paper carries a misquotation of one Rav or another, you’ll have multiple published letters from Talmidim correcting the record. This is on far more mild stuff than whether or not someone claimed to be Moshiach! The same happens outside our circles as well, of course. If someone misquotes Churchill or Einstein or most anyone, some historian who knows better will set the record straight, publicly. Why on earth shouldn’t there be widely-published articles about what the Rebbe actually said?
And finally, the consequences are simply too grave for silence to be the appropriate answer, even when addressing those outside Lubavitch. For some 2000 years, one of the key differences between Judaism and Christianity was that Judaism is simply not looking for a dead person to be the Messiah. Our vision of the Moshiach is that he will be an anointed king from the line of David, who restores the kingdom in Jerusalem, builds the third and final Bais HaMikdash, and ushers in an era of peace for Israel. He will not be proven Melech HaMoshiach through signs and wonders, nor will he die half-way through the mission and come back later to finish the job.
Fifteen years ago, all of this changed, literally overnight. The Meshichisten represent a splinter we haven’t seen in 2000 years, and when there are ads proclaiming his imminent return, you have the Evangelicals publishing ads reading “If he doesn’t come on Sunday, come see us on Monday!”
You don’t have a problem with that? Of course you do. One thing is for certain: if Lubavitchers were more vocal about it, Rabbi Dovid Berger wouldn’t be able to write about “the scandal of Orthodox indifference.”
Comment by Yaakov Menken — February 10, 2008 @ 10:47 am
“One more thought.I challenge any of the bashers to come to Crown Heights and and go to ninety nine percent of the Shuls and listen for the words “Yechi………”.The answer is you will not hear these words .The only place its heard is in the headquarters of the lunies downstairs in 770 but not for long.
Comment by Asher Heber — February 10, 2008 @ 2:05 am ”
I have never been to 770 but have heard Yechi chanted many times. How could that be? Come to Los Angeles, you will hear it often.
But the absence or not of the chanting of Yechi, is somewhat irrelevant.
As is the Chabad Shuls that still say the Rebbes Psalm ( numbered for his next birthday, or the calendars that say Happy Birthday on 11th of Nissan)
How many faxes are delivered to the Rebbes grave daily? Those who send them having been told to ask the Rebbe and he will answer? Or seeking answers in his collection of speeches and letters? And many other examples of belief in the continued presence of the Rebbe and his imminant return as Moshiach, whether resurrected from death or revealed from some hidden place but still very much alive.
What is relevant is that nobody is screaming stop this nonsense.
Comment by mb — February 10, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
I beg to differ with some of the points made by Rabbi Menken in his previous post.I work in a non Lubavitch Chinuch organization and come in contact with many Litveshe yeshivashe individuals who act and speak about their roshei Hayishivos in the very same manner that we are accused of speaking about the Rebbi.There is nothing wrong with holding one’s Rebbi or Rosh Hayishiva in awe but lets remember that this is a two way streat.
As to pictures on the the wall,I don’t know which houses Rabbi Menken has visited but almost all houses I have visited have at least one picture and in some cases almost entire walls covered with pictures of gedolim, Roshei Hayishivos,,Rabeim etc.Again there is nothing wrong with this but lets not make this a benchmark as to who worships what.
Just to give an example about how far this Lubavitch bashing has gone, one talkback poster in the one of the recent articles in the Jerusalem Post on this subject, one who signs himslf in as a “Rabbi” and “posek”, states the following “Lubavitch has gone of the rails since 1922 when they were the only ones that did not heed the command of the Chofetz Chaim for all Jews living in Communist dominated Russia to leave”
Comment by Asher Heber — February 10, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
I have to ask, again, that we try to address the reality instead of distorting it. The comment about pictures is emblematic. Of course you find pictures of Gedolim on walls. My wife has a wall in our living room with 17 Gedolim on it (admittedly, five are combined in one picture).
And that’s the point, there are fourteen 8×10 (or smaller) photos of seventeen different Gedolim (none of whom were alive when the pictures were posted). This is very different than walking into a house and finding a single larger-than-poster-sized frame, taking up more than double the wall space of 14 8×10s, of one larger-than-life picture of one Rebbe. You do not walk into “Litveshe” homes or schools and find the same Gadol’s picture on most every wall in every room.
And what’s more, I am absolutely certain that Rabbi or Mr. Heber is well aware of the difference, if he comes into contact with nearly as many Lubavitchers and Litvaks as he claims. This is, as I said, emblematic of the response to the whole issue: far too much time and effort spent denying the existence of something far too obvious to ignore.
Comment by Yaakov Menken — February 10, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
A few comments on the comments…
1. [removed by Editor]
2. The gravity of the meshichist problem is overstated, and has become a rather convenient excuse for some old ‘ahavat chinam’ to resurface…
The fact remains that while the meshichisten are guilty of distorting the LR’s words and teachings, they are hardly guilty of kefirah or avoda-zarah, simply of supplanting the ‘hichesa limeshicha’ of the Rambam, with what has always been a very marginal view. Were there to be a real problem, c”v, of this magnitude, don’t you think a single posek would have issued a definitive ruling - give our gedolim some credit.
All that has been said is that foolishness is not an aveira, and it isn’t. As for the future of Lubavitch, let the ones who built it maintain it, grow it, fix it, or whatever. Johnny-come-latelies from the outside generally do more harm than good.
3. As for the pictures, Rabbi Menken, I’ve seen plenty of mega-pictures of R’Schach, R’Ovadya, and the Gerer Rebbe in many homes - so what ? Visit Flatbush, Deal, Bnei-Braq, and you’ll see what I mean. But what of it ? This is what you call avoda-zarah ? There is ample support for this type of thing going back (at-least) centuries. While the following seforim may not be very well-known outside chassidic circles, their standing is certainly beyond reproach. The Arizal (see Chida- midbar kedemos, ‘tziyur’) instructs that difficulties in torah-learning can be overcome by conjuring up a picture of one’s rebbe. Sar Shalom of Belz said that when in trouble or need, one should visualize the image of a tzaddik and he will surely be helped (see Lev Sameach - R’Chanoch Henoch m’Olesk). And the Palgei Mayim (end 16th century) writes that he kept a picture of his rebbe in his bet-hamidrash to fulfill the verse ‘vehayu einecha ro’os es morecha’. So having children look at the picture of a tzaddik before saying shema at night doesn’t sound like a very big deal, EVEN if said tzaddik is the Lubavitcher Rebbe. To conflate this with avoda-zarah as you do (”Avodah Zarah mamash — people who call the Rebbe “Boreinu” and teach children to pray to him (l”a!) and look at his picture before saying Shema”)is dishonest, and runs the risk of running into the same situation confronting Mrs. Katz. Ask yourself, is it worth it ?
Comment by S. Breslow — February 10, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
Again I disagree with Yakov Menkens previous post.If you enter the home of any Chosid, be he Satmar ,Gur,Bobov,Belz etc.You will find pictures of only their Rabeim.Again I see nothing intrinsicly wrong with one picture, many pictures big or small.I don’t see this as a major Avlah that is always brought up when a Lubavitch bashing session is in progress.
Apparently MB is not very familiar with the age old custom of placing a Pidyon Nefesh at the kevorim ,graves of Gedolei Yisroel.
As to saying a Kapital,chapter Thillim on the birth date or every day for a tzadik lilui nishmoso as an example of our iniquities ,is nit picking in it’s purest form.Wishing the Rebbi “happy bithday” ,this is a new one to me.What will they come up with next? I agree that using the Rebbi’s letters to find answers to ones problems is stretching things a bit and many Lubavitcher Rabbonim Have publicly and vehemently come out against this practice.
As Rabbi weiss has put it so succinctly,all this will make no difference to those whose mind set is to dig up all the dirt they can against Chabad.
There is a Yiddish expression “az men zucht gut gefunt men.Az men zucht shlechts gefunt men” If one sets out with the idea of looking for the good in something he will find it and those who set out with the idea of finding the negative in the very same object will find it.As exemplified by the incident of Yehosha,Calev and the rest of the Spies sent by Moshe. One thing for sure. This entire “discussion” about who or what Moshiach is continued villification of Chabad will certainly not hasten his coming
Comment by Asher Heber — February 10, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
“Apparently MB is not very familiar with the age old custom of placing a Pidyon Nefesh at the kevorim ,graves of Gedolei Yisroel.”
I’m not? Hmmm. I have a feeling I have been around Orthodoxy a lot longer than you, and I’m well immersed in Chabad practices. What you didn’t respond to was the common call to”fax the Rebbe” and he will answer your problem. And commenting on saying Tehillim for the Rebbe’s next birthday is not nit-picking. Is is observing a most peculiar custom of those who in your opinion say the Rebbe is dead and not coming back.
Please do not be disingenuous.
I’m still waiting for the leadership to scream “Stop these rediculous practices”
Comment by mb — February 10, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
mb - now you’re, (like others), simply not writing the truth. I never said, nor even suggested that Chabad, in California, Is “Rife” with M’s. Neither did Rabbi Eliezrie. We, not like you, were simply writing truthfully that there are M’s. go back, if you’re sincere, read my posts. and apologize publicly, for misstating what I wrote, otherwise I will feel that the credit I gave you for asking an honest question was missplaced.
from your further posts, it seems you were just baiting me and others. I have nothing further to say to you. You have wasted my valuble time.
Rabbi Menken: you are of course right in many of your points. I will not deny many of the things you write, although I do think that you are greatly minimizing a) the current glory of Chabad, witness the multitudes of new Yeshivos and the success of the many Heichal Menachem institutes for learning chassidus that are very succesful in heavily populated Boro Park, Bnai Braq and Yerushalayim. The Chassidus on line phone shiurim are at capacity even in places like Lakewood. There is much greatness in Chabad currently, much Torah and Yiraas Shomayim, you are making it sound that Chabad is an old relic, a history. Every week Kovtzim of deep Chidushei Torah appear from Chabad institutions, some are available on line. do some more research.
b) you greatly minimize the “cult of personality” aspect, of the type that has so stigmmatized Chabad all these years, that has permeated other groups as well, sometimes to an extreme, that was not there years ago. This is a fact that you and others choose to ignore, but it is there. Customs. minhagim, and even publications surrounding the great Gaonim Rav Eliyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky and the like, that would have been unbheard of a generation ago, booklets and (now videos! shades of Chabad!) that chronicle their every waking moment, books of even the most ridiculous questions posed to these gedolim that, would they appear from Chabad, would be the source of derision in every web site from hirhurim to Yeshiva world. I have in my posession books written about the lives of recently deceased Roshei Yeshiva that i showed excerpts to a good “yeshivish” friend of mine, a talmid Chochom, and asked him to tell me who they are takling about, he knew I was testing him so he didn’t comment, when i showed him the cover he flipped and quipped “it must have been written by a chabadnik” he was of course joking but he admitted he ahd no idea.
I will record a story I heard first hand, last summer, personally from the leading Rabbi of Chinuch Atzmai, a gerrer Chasid, who was seen by Rabbi Shach as a Chabad sympathizer. He would always field questions from the aforementioned Rov and tried to answer as best he could. He once entered the rovs chambers and the Rov literally pounced on him (his words) with a copy of “sefer minhagim chabad” folded to a certain page, there it says that chassidim have a custom to place a picture of the Rebbe (original content was referring to previous rebbe, but obvious that it also meant the then current rebbe) under the head of a baby at a bris, Says Rabbi Shach, Nu! what do you say about this? isn’t this Avoda Zoro? The Chinuch Atzmai rabbi answered “Rosh Yeshiva. are you aware that they do similar things in Bnai Braq every day with your picture?” and I myself witnessed it? Rabbi Shach said “Ach now you’re just making letzonus” he said “no, I’m not”. and Rabbi Shach was silent. These are not the rantings of a blind chasid, I subscribe to a multitude of publications that are sent to me, I am extreemly aware of what is going on in the Jewsih, Chareidi, world. With due respect, you are minimizing this newfound phenomenon. It’s there, but you only see, as perhaps you should, the good in it, not the insidious you perscribe to Chabad.
Re somethings you wrote in your other original piece. You are surely aware of the severe pronouncements and appendages litvisher Gedolim placed on The Rebbe and Chabad in general (curses and statements I will not repeat), these were in PRINT, and even moreso in private, even regarding to their wine and shidduchim with them, over thirty, forty years ago, and not relating to Moshiach, These statements public and private were seen as an extreme affront to Chabad and its Chassidim, certainly not becoming of “Gedolim”, how much were these statements responsible for a “wagon train” mentality among Chabad? and how many of these same horrid statments (BTW NOT relating to Moshiach, for example a proclamation that the “Kat” is organizing a Lag Baomer Parade in the streets and saying Shma etc. and prohibitting any school to join this prohibbitted gathering) this caused a knee jerk reaction among chassidim. Don’t make it sound that the Litvisher world were just some innocent lambs being bashed by chutzpadik Lubs. There was stuff, bad stuff, flung from both sides, I was there, I heard it and suffered it myself.
I spoke to early students of Yeshiva Tora V’daas and their Roshei Yeshiva were denigrating the previous rebbe (jokes about him being in a wheel chair etc.) in the early 40’s. please don’t make it sound that Lubavitch is entirely guilty and the Yeshiva world were not acting more than a little disgusting as well.
Re the fact that Lubavitch is the only group villified. It seems you are simply not aware of the severe issues confronting the chareidi yeshiva world today, and how MANY groups simply hate (no other words for it) and fight and completely dismiss each other, to an exttreme level.
Rabbi Menken, you surely must be aware of what is going on in Ponovizh? the two factions that literally use hands and fists and fight, to the point that there were not any Hakafot in the Yeshiva one year. or Satmar (very extreme) or of the feelings between Sfardim and Ashkenazic TORAH leaders in Israel, not too mention the recent fights, that literally led toliteral bloodshed in the streets of Williamsburgh between Satmar and your beloved Belz? in the mid 70’s.
To this day I am not sure if a Belz and Satmar would do a shidduch. There have been serious issues in Ger, causing the opening of a seperate Bais Yaakov in Bnai Brak, because the teachers at Wolf would tell the Gerrer seminary students not to marry Gerrer boys.
Or of the feelings between Belz and the Eidah Hachareidis, who are not shy in their condemnations.
What do you think they are fighting about? whose Kugels are better? there are deep rifts among Frum Jews today and yesterday, Its not only about Lubavitch.
Maybe, since we are still in Golus and takeh, need Moshiach, and soon. for all this terrible hatred, especially among TORAH yidden, to stop. Maybe we ALL should examine our Battim and see if there is mold!
with Respect, Rabbi Menken, because i think your intentions are more than noble.
Moishe Weiss
Comment by moishe Weiss — February 10, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
1) How can one compare putting up pictures and similar things to DECLARING with certainty who IS THE MESSIAH (as for example Soble and many other messianists did for the ENTIRE WORLD) in JPost and other similar venues?
2) Not *one* Chabad Rabbi has the courage to come out in the same venue (Jpost for exapmple) FOR THE PAST 13 YEARS (i have to retract this: for there were two individuals who did so (in the past) and they were vilified and one of them still vilified till today!) and explain how the writer was wrong in declaring this things in general, and as a Chabad Chassid and shliach in particular and especially as he came out quoting the words of the Rebbe as he made all those claims that Soble said he did? The same goes for all similar announcements done in public. How many times has an ad in the NYT come out declaring the Rebbe as the Messiah by Lubavitchers and in the name of the Rebbe and how many rebuttals in the same venue?
3) Writers come back swinging at the audacity of questioning the approach of the non messianists, after so much messirut nefesh (depicting incidentallyperjorativley other jews -as another custom of chabad of late- the gatkes colors other jews choose to put in the morning) as if this has to do with the discussion. The discussion is: What are you doing to dissasociate from the message for the past 13 years ? Zero! (It is probably not fair to write this about the present writer as he did in the recent past try hard to express his position of outrage at those…But that is not the response of anyone in an *official* capacity).
4) At the end of the day: 770 is run by messianists. Dancing at lecho dodi every friday night with yechi for a long time. Announcements of yechi at aliyas, before and after davening. At the end after all the 90% of the synagogues put together they do not fill half of 770. No Rabbi can have the audacity to express an opinion different that theirs inside these circles (we are not talking about private conversations). (And the same goes for numerous places outside of 770 where similar customs exist).
5) And at the end of the day: Mesirat nefesh and good work, do not condone creating a new religion THAT AFFECTS OTHER JEWS (precisely because influences jews at large), does not exempt offending people; and creating divisiveness amongst Jews in most sensitive issues (that are not mandated by the Torah; on the contrary).
The messirat nefesh and good work lubavitch earns is when they work for the cause; not when the cause (of bringing Jews to Torah and Hashem; to help Jews, to bring us all closer to Mashiach) is a medium to the name of Lubavitch. Messirat nefesh to bring unity amongst all jews; not to stir the pot to divide jews.
Comment by omer — February 10, 2008 @ 10:33 pm
mb - now you’re, (like others), simply not writing the truth. I never said, nor even suggested that Chabad, in California, Is “Rife” with M’s. Neither did Rabbi Eliezrie
I never said you did. I said you didn’t deny that the Chabad institutions are rife with M’s.
I’ll ask you again. Do you deny it?
Or shall I name names?
Comment by mb — February 10, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
“I have attended Chabad shiurim, Chabad Shabbos services, and even worked for a Chabad organization, and I have never once detected even the slightest inference from a Chabad shliach that the Rebbe is the Messiah. Not once.”
>>>>>
This statement cannot possibly be true. I have attended Chabad shiurim, speeches, simchos, local Miami fabregens, Shabbos meals at the homes of Lubavitchers, and hardly ever have I NOT heard something either straight out or hinted that the Rebbe is (or “COULD BE”) Moshiach.
Comment by Toby Katz — February 11, 2008 @ 12:10 am
Rabbi Menkin; Allow me to address your fixation on the picture/video issue.
The Rebbe was once asked by a lady who strongly criticized and questioned the Rebbes call for unmarried girls to light Shabbos candles,
being that her family custom was that young girls do not light Shabbos candles. The Rebbe answered, (printed I believe in Vol 16 of LS) “Your Grandparents didn’t wear make up or go to movies either, so when one adds in darkness one needs to add in light.”
Personally I could care less whether you have ten or twenty pictures of Gedolim in your living room, something which once again was absolutely anathema to Yeshivish crowds of yeteryear, but with all the influences in the HOME and the STREET and the CHEDER and the YESHIVA that kids are subject to, I for one would rather them be bombarded with pictures and videos of Gedolim and Rebbes (whoever they are) than the other stuff. our kids (and we adults as well I might add) need whatever help they can get from WHEREVER they can get it. The Midrash quoted by Rashi that Yosef was saved from sin due to recalling his fathers image.
As for the child looking at the Rebbes picture and then saying Shma, I’ve never seen it happen and at the Chadorim and Yeshivos I went to they don’t teach it, but allow me a different perspective.
In the sefer Raishis Chochma Shaar Hakedusha it tells us that during “Tashmish” (marital relations), one should have the “tziur” picture of a taddik in mind. He bases this on the Gemmoro that relates that Rav Yochanan would sit in front of the Mikve (Bais Hamerchatz) so that the women immersing would see his face and think of his form, and “have beautiful children like me” the intent, as is obvious there, beautiful children spiritually.
Again, Im not advocating or teaching anything, but if I heard that my childs mind was filled with the “tziyur” of the Rebbe, instead of what he may readily snatch from the ‘net or youtube etc, Rachmono Litzlan, I would be overjoyed. I truly feel we live in a very different era even from when I was growing up just a few short years ago, even when we had TV and Movies, its very very different now. I wouldn’t belittle anything that leads and adds to yiras Shomayim.
When newly religious congregants come to me for advice how to “convince” or transform their spouses or immediate families, to become religious, I invariably tell them, “forget it” you will never convince anyone, but here is what I want you to do, place mezuzas on all the doors, get as many religious items and symbols and books in your home as possible, and live that life in a pleasant way, you will see that little by little it will have the desired effect. It has worked many times, at least to break down resistance. (this is BTW the Rebbes reason for the public Menorahs).
I would rather a video of the Rebbe be playing non-stop than another type of video. and maybe for variety I’ll even sign up for the monthly Rav Eliyashev video. if you add in darkness, you must add in light.
BTW. my brother had a mechutan who was extremely close to Rav Shach, he passed away and a sefer Zikaron was printed recently for him by his children in Lakewood, he was a very special man. my brother spent Shabbos at his home in flatbush he had a huge life size picture of HaRav shach in his breakfast room of all places, as well as in other strategic locations, there was an interesting story re this maybe for another time.
Moishe Weiss
Comment by Moishe Weiss — February 11, 2008 @ 1:05 am
You will notice with all the time defending our selves from the vile accusation of Avoda Zara, it’s difficult to get into the discussion of the supposedly “kfira” beliefs. It’s not clear out Avodah Zorah by any stretch and saying so wont make it, though some in the Litvish velt continue to insist it is without bringing any clear-cut proof and without any public support from major poskim. They bring the Rambam that says if Moshiach is killed we then know he isn’t anymore Chezkas Moshiach.
Lets quote the whole Rambam Hilchos Melochim Chapter 11 seif 3: “And don’t assume that the king Moshiach has to do miracles and wonders and create new things in the world. The matter isn’t so. For behold Rabbi Akiva [one of the] great[est] sages from the sages of the Mishna, and he would hold the instruments of Ben Kuziba [Bar Kachva] the king. And he considered AND ALL THE SAGES OF HIS GENERATION that he [Ben Kuziba] was King Moshiach. Untill he was killed because of his sins. When he was killed it became known to them that he isn’t [king Moshiach]. And the sages didn’t ask from him [Ben Kuziba] no sign and no wonder. And the fundamentals [of the Torah] are such. Because this Torah, it’s statutes and it’s laws are for ever and ever, and we don’t add to them and we don’t retract.”
What do we learn from this Rambam. First of all it’s perfectly legitimate to consider someone as a candidate for Moshiach without any miraculous “Missanic” events. He just has to fulfill the criteria of the next paragraph which I quoted above, which basically says he has to strengthen Yidishkeit; nothing miraculous.
So lets take this a step at a time. Before the Rebbe passed away was the Rebbe a possible candidate? Many Chasidim and many, many non-lubavitch people would of answered Yes. There are even accounts of Litvishe Gedolim insinuating that mayby the Rebbe is the best candidate.
So to say before Gimmel Tamuz that this is appikursos is simply wrong and vicious.
Now, after Gimmel Tammuz, the belief that it MIGHT be possible that the Rebbe retains his previous status, at first glance in the Rambam seems wrong. The Rambam says that if Chezkas Moshiach is killed - its over. But some Meshichistim will argue the Rambam says if he was “killed” not died implying that in the case of natural death he might still retain his previous status.
OK, I’m not saying that they are right. I’m saying it’s not against Yidishkeit such a belief. I have heard there are sources that such a possibility is possible, though to be honest I don’t know the sources off hand. The reason I don’t is because that’s not what I believe the Rebbe wanted from us. The Rebbe was upset when people proclaimed publicly that he is Moshaich. I know this much: the Meshichistim might be wrong and foolish but they are not apirkusim. (And all this “boreinu” stuff is pure LIES. I haven’t seen a single chabadnik say this boreinu stuff. That is pure lies and pure hate-slander.) That is why even Litvish Gedolim have refrained of paskening that this is apirkusos because it might be wrong and it might be very damaging and very foolish and it’s AGAINST the Rebbe’s wishes but it falls short of being apirkusos.
And all these hate-mongers demand :Chabad should get up and declare that the Rebbe is not Moshiach.” They can’t declae that, the same way they can’t declare that Dovid Hamelech is not Moshiach, The same way you can’t declare the Mahral of Prauge is not Moshaich. THe same way you can’t declare ELIYAH Hanavi is moshiach. (By the way there are many arguments in the Gemmoro about Moshiach. There is even an argumant that Moshiach won’t come, though that is not accepted as halach. But the Amora who said that wasn’t an apikores. And Rabbi Akivah wasn’t an apikores. An Apikores is someone who belives in Avodah Zara and This ISN’T Avodah Zara). You can’t declare that. The times of and the actual events of Moshiach is a mystery and NO ONE knows (NOT EVEN CHABADNIKS know) WHO Moshiach is. We can only say such and such is or was a CANDIDATE of Moshiach.
And when Chabad try to explain the difference between chezkas Moshiach and Moshiach Vadai (which most in the Jewish world assume that when a meshichist is saying the Rebbe is/was moshiach they assume he means Moshiach vadai.) But these subtleties get lost in the hubris and