Outmaneuvered by Dossim

You talk a lot about anti-charedi “incitement.” Just so we’re clear, are you actually accusing the non-charedi media of persuading others to commit a crime, which is the definition of incitement? If so, what crime are they encouraging? And has anyone acted on it?

[First answer: consult a dictionary. You’d have a point, if you were right. Instead you have demonstrated an inadequate grasp of the English language, as the word and the crime are two different things. This is why I don’t like comments from behind a moniker: in this case, it enabled you to make a remark both condescending and imbecile.

Second, fomenting hatred of charedim does lead directly to illegal activity. For example, the recent survey of secular Israelis showed that 82% are willing to hire charedim — which means that 18% would engage in religious discrimination. I’m no expert in Israeli law, but in the US that’s illegal. — YM]

This reminds me of the story of Rabbi Saul Lieberman that I heard in yeshiva. R. Lieberman was asked by a priest whether he would save him on Shabbat. R, Lieberman said he would. The priest who was quite knowlegeable asked R. Lieberman whether he said that out of humantiarian considerations or mipnei darkei shalom. R. Lieberman said from humanitarian considerations. When the priest left R. Lieberman said: “I answered that way Mipnei Darkei Shalom.”

if it was net yet cited,

here is a Bnai Braq haredi commemoration—

http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2014/05/yom-hazikaron-ceremony-in-bnei-braq.html

i think that either the scene described by R Harry in Bnei Brak and the recitation of Tehilim on Yom HaZikaron by Charedim LZcer Nismos those who lost their lives in defense of the State of Israel are both wonderful example of hakaras hatov and demonstrating a sense of being Noseh B’ol Chavero.

I guess Hamodia’s rabbinic board is haughty too. From the Forward:

The national Haredi newspaper Hamodia, which has a panel of influential rabbis determining policy, ran an editorial urging readers to observe the siren. The piece (not available online) urged Haredim to “honor and perpetuate” the memory of the fallen.

Commemorations of all sorts are acceptable,as long as…….

‘The Yom Hazikaron memorial ceremony for residents of the northern city of Tzefas was held last night amid a conflict between bereaved parents and the city’s chief rabbi, who opposed a performance by women singers during the ceremony.

Rav Shmuel Eliyahu walked out of a Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremony last week when a dance group of girls got on the stage. Ahead of Remembrance Day for Israel’s Fallen Soldiers, he tried to prevent the performance of female singers during the ceremony. Last year, he accepted the presence of a woman performer in the ceremony.

“I am not boycotting the ceremony,” Rav Eliyahu clarified in an appeal to Tzefas Mayor Ilan Shohat and representatives of the bereaved families. “No one wants this whole thing to explode. We are looking for a way for everyone to find their place.” ‘

I don’t see where you mentioned Hamodia in this post.

But be that as it may, I do not criticize anyone for saying Tehilim. That misses my entire point. What I criticze is doing it when everyone else is doing something else. It sends a message.

Now if after they stood silent they would have said Tehilim… I would have applauded it and pointed it out. As it is I applauded the Rabbonim in Bnei Brak who did not say Tehilim and stood still with the rest of the country. That sent a mesage too… a far more positive one in my view.

Those Dossim knew they were going to be watched and wanted to send their dual message. One was that they do honor the dead (a good message) and one that the way the country does it is wrong (a bad message).

Had they stood in silence it would not have been a ‘holier then thou’ moment. Do the Dossim think they are holier than the Rabbonim in Bnei Brak? Why didn’t they say Tehilim?

I am saddened that you disparage my motives, Yaakov. This has nothing to do with looking down at anyone for saying Tehilim.

Does anyone else wonder why seven or eight charedi men, out of hundreds of thousands, are worthy of note? As if this proves anything either way? This doesn’t look like a movement to me.

[Consider the amount of attention paid to the fraction of Charedim who are out in public and do not stand at attention, and your question answers itself. –YM]

For those of you who don’t actually live in Israel, let me explain something. During the moment of silence, one is supposed to stop activities, look down, and STAND IN SILENCE. You can make up a new tehillim-saying ritual, but that is not the right way to observe the national Israeli minute of silence. Just like in America, there is a proper way to fold the flag, salute the flag, etc., there is ONLY one correct way to follow this national, ceremonial remembrance of our fallen soldiers.
There is nothing against halacha here – we are allowed to stand in silence. All that people want is one respectful minute of standing in silence. What a small request to honor all those who died for us!
Worse, those who do not observe this ritual correctly cause a massive chillul Hashem, so according to most people’s understanding of Torah behavior, NOT following the ritual is a sin, and following it creates shalom and is a mitzva. I am happy to report that ALL the people I saw this year – including charedim – stopped what they were doing and stood still, looking down, for the few seconds the siren lasted. And that is nothing that needs to be applauded – it is basically what I learned in first grade:
דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה
May the memory of all the fallen soldiers – especially those who were not privileged to leave behind children – be remembered for their holy sacrifice. Their deaths protected the land of Israel and the Jewish people and because of them, we are here in this land on Yom HaAtzmaut today.

L Oberstein, I respect you for your common sense and menschlichkeit. You follow in the derech of Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, ztl (and many other Lithuanian and stam European gedolim), who had no patience for the hubris parading around these days in the name of “frumkeit”.

Keep up the good work.

Unfortunately, there are Yom HaAtzmaut episodes every year that create a massive chillul Hashem – by charedim.
Last year, in Ramat Bet Shemesh B, people ripped flags off passing cars (and there’s basically only one driving route from RBS A to Bet Shemesh proper without going out to a highway, and it passes through the main drag of Rama B (check a map). Stealing, destroying property, etc. People sprayed graffiti all over buildings in RBS B (not just once or twice, I saw it at least 10 times) showing a black swastika = blue star of David.
This year in Bnei Brak, people ripped down flags from lightposts. The media does NOT report all these episodes. I happen to be charedi, and I saw all this WITH MY OWN TWO EYES.
Of course we must defend the masses of good Charedim, but we do need to educate the minority who have yet to learn alef-bais about being a frum Jew.

Can someone just explain one thing – you say that the charedim should stand silently and recite tehillim in their thoughts during the siren. OK, they can recite baseball stats in their thoughts for all anyone cares, as long as they don’t offend people by telling them that is what they were thinking about at the time.
Yesterday, when I heard the siren, I thought about the young boys who died – some suffering particularly gruesome deaths, like Nachshon Wachsman – and I thought about the mothers who lost their sons, wives who lost their husbands, young children who lost their fathers forever, sisters who lost their sisters etc. etc. I thought about how grateful we all have to be for these sacrifices and how much love we should have for families that lost children to terror attacks. What exactly, is wrong with what I did? Are we sure saying tehillim is a better way for all charedim to experience this moment of reflection, which I think was intended to get people to think about what I was thinking about?
As for the media coverage, I’d love to know why the media thinks it is OK to film and photograph charedim during the moment of silence, when you are supposed to stop working and stand silently with your head down…but the issue for us, as Charedi Jews, is to try to make sure our behavior leads to a kiddush Hashem. And I don’t think any readers here would disagree with that goal.

Sara kahn,

while you are 100% correct,

(a.welcome to Israel

b.)this sounds remarkably similar to purim in some secular neighborhoods!

@ Sara
There is definitely nothing wrong with what you were thinking, but saying tehillim, besides for the fact that it actually elevates the souls of those who were killed, it also makes a public stament saying that we, as chareidim care.
The secular community sees that whenever something important happens to us we gather and say tehillim. (the recent atzeret for example)

…and it was also more than advice,it was often public policy as well
(Moreso,during the autopsy saga of the late ’60s ,the Moetzet of America threatened to FORBID wholesale making aliya)

“I am quite aware of what Rabbi Sholom Gold believes he was told (It likely was a sagacious “b’derech she’adam rotzeh ley’lech..)”

Wow…talk about an outsized display of cognitive dissonance.

To Rafael A.:

I don’t usually respond to people who don’t reveal their full names, but I’m making an exception here because I perused some of your prior posts and, lo-and-behold, I find your positions to be intelligently and fairly expressed (and pretty much reflecting my own).

So your current broadside against me leaves me perplexed. I say “broadside,” because when I take exception to a posted comment, I almost always quote the words that I am addressing in my critique. In this case, however, you have accused me of “hubris” in “EVERY” post? Either you have a phenomenal memory, or you took the time to re-read past posts of mine (which I find hardly likely). But, if either is true, I would ask that you kindly give an example (or two) as to what you find hubristic, so that I can at least put your accusation to self-examination, and perhaps elect to respond. Currently, however, you have not allowed me either of these options. Instead, you have taken an overly generalized pot-shot at me, which I don’t think is fair.