You say you are a Hirschian. Does that apply only to the concept of applying the Torah to Earth and not divorcing it, or does it apply also to the political ideas of austritt, self-governacne, etc?

- sounds goyish to me

Putting my Rav Hirsch thinking cap on, is there a Torah perspective on why this is? Some of that music, particularly that of Bach, followed by Mozart and Handel, is so sublime, so heavenly, so gorgeous in both a harmonious and transcendent sort of way, that I have a hard time convincing myself that this is NOT the music that G-d plays in Heaven.

RYA is actually proud to be a partial Hirschian.

My dear friend Rabbi Belovski is only partially right.

RSRH was a fierce opponent of the Zionism of his day. He would brook no compromise in dealing with secular Zionists who had no room for Torah, much as he rejected any cooperation that implied recognition of Reform. We do not know what he would have said or done once a Jewish State became a reality, and home to the largest community of Jews on the planet. We must differentiate between the implementation of his vision in specific manners (e.g. I am not so sure that he would prescribe the exact curriculum for schools in Flatbush as he did in Frankurt), and his essential message. I am not aware of parts of his essential message that would make impossible some sort of modus vivendi (such as Agudah uses) in dealing with a government he could hardly imagine.

I can’t prove this, but I doubt of Rabbi Belovski can prove his contention.

So I will give him partial credit.

My knowledge of Schiller, alas, is limited to “Ode to Joy” as the lyrical framework for the last movement of Beethoven’s Ninth, which I will admit to enjoying.

But Rav Hirch’s message and voice have sustained the inner spiritual life of at least this Jew many a time. They have also allowed me to share this message with hundreds of others, as well, over a period of many years.

Although I am not a member of the German Jewish community, I am disturbed by Rabbi Mantel’s recent remarks regarding the contemporary relevance of “Torah im Derech Eretz.” See http://www.jewishpress.com/displaycontent_new.cfm?contentid=33512&mode=a&contentname=Agreement%20with%20last%20message.

Obviously, Rav Hirsch’s philosophy needs to be properly applied to every generation and locale (the same is true about Rav Aharon Kotler’s philosophy, or any other). But it is an entirely different matter to dismiss “Torah im Derech Eretz” as irrelevant in our time.

For one thing, in a generation where tuition is so expensive and, therefore, the need for “Derech Eretz” cannot be minimized, it is essential that the Derech Eretz be balanced with Torah learning and practice. One could, in fact, argue that “Torah im Derech Eretz” has never been more relevant.

Furthermore, with Rav Hirsch gone almost 120 years, why is it first being said now that “Torah im Derech Eretz” could only be properly implemented in his lifetime?

It would have been more politically savvy (and, I believe, more accurate) to say that “Torah im Derech Eretz” is alive and well today, although it is essential that the philosophy be properly applied to every generation and locale.

The downside to such candor would have been the need to acknowledge (at least implicitly) that, by no stretch of the imagination, could learning in Kollel indefinitely be deemed consistent with “Torah im Derech Eretz.”

I have attended so many Torah classes over the decades from so many Torah teachers that I have long lost count of just how many. I have found over the years that the two Torah commentators that most appeal to me over and over again are Nachmanidies and Rav Samson R Hirsh. I have said in here that I would probably be Modern Orthodox if I were religious, but I had forgotten that Rav Hirsch solves the Chareidi vs Modern Orthodox dichotomy quite masterfully.

Let me by way of analogy remind readers of the Jewish concept of Evil. In Judaism, Evil, as represented by Satan, is NOT G-d’s opponent or enemy, but is a servant of G-d. G-d sends us Satan to tempt us, so that if and when we overcome such guile, our heavenly reward and strength of character is all that much greater.

I think that this was the view of Rav Hirsch toward the secular world as a whole. Rather than avoid it as much as possible as the Chareidim do, and rather than have it be part of the dual existence that Modern Orthodox Judaism calls for, we should instead embrace the secular world, but always in a way that it is a servant to G-d and His Torah, just as Yefet serves Shem. In other words, just to use about as mundane as an example as possible, if we are going to be baseball fans, we should somehow try to see Torah lessons within the baseball we are following.

One of my dreams has been to master Rav Hirsch’s Torah commentary. The problem is, though, his writing style. Naturally influenced by his outer environment, Rav Hirsch wrote in long and complicated sentences just as 19th century Germans tended to do. To a modern American like me, with the attention span of a knat and the sophistication of a hillbilly, I need short, concrete sentences and paragraphs, to sustain my attention. I want the writing to sound more like a conversation than a formal, dry lecture. Every time I try to read Rav Hirsch, by the time I get to the end of one of his admittedly elegant and erudite sentences, I have already forgotten what he said in the first part of that same sentence.

I say none of this as a detriment to yourself or to Rav Hirsch. I simply believe that someone ought to be melamed zchus for Moses Mendelsohn. It may be shocking to the ears to hear but he was actually (potentially and in many ways) a RSRH just a few decades too early and he in no way deserves the opprobrium that he’s been subject to these many years. Looked at holistically, he was a great man and a Jew we can all be proud of… and mourn for the bad luck that his legacy has gained.

mnuez

A policy of let americans decide for america and let israelis decide for E”y is probably necessary. After all, if one wishes to argue that we need local leaders to weigh in on the situation here, we can’t dictate to Israelis, and we aren’t in a position to anyway. Still, I think TIDE probably has more relevance to EY than golah. It is more likely that religious Jews can influence life in israel, and also more important that they impact their fellow Jews.

The German-Jewish absorption into the melting pot of Orthodox Jewish America appears now to be nearing completion. Much of the Washington Heights community blended into Monsey(which has its own KAJ) and other communities. For the most part, all the yekkes I grew up with are, today, indistinguishable from all the other yeshiva guys I went to school with.

Yekkes are barely any longer a distinct “community,” not because they haven’t tried, but because the culture of the United States, in all its democratic glory and fiscally upward mobility, does not lend itself to those sorts of enclaves.

Fortunately, none of that matters. What the Yekkeshe community can take pride in - and this is, lulei demistafina, the ultimate trophy - is that Torah Im Derech Eretz is the de facto standard of American Orthodoxy.

Most of us go to work, speak unaccented English, and are friendly and honest with the “outside” world. Again, that’s most of us. Even in Lakewood, the vast majority of heads of households are not sitting in Kollel but hold jobs that require them to deal with the outside world. Lakewood is not the ghetto that it is perceived - nor that it perceives itself - to be.

Two centuries later, Rav Hirsch has won not only the battle, but also the war.

It is nteresting that Rabbi Adlerstein describes himself as a Hirschian, rather than an adherant of TIDE and an admirer of RSRH’s writings. Being a full Hirschian would also involve adopting RSRH’s fierce opposition to Zionism and enjoying the poetry of Schiller…

As one of my congregants astutely observed (following my speech about RSRH last Shabbos), there are no full Hirschians, just lots of partial ones.

RYA is actually proud to be a partial Hirschian.

P.S.
On the practical level (i.e. man’s got to work and he shouldn’t feel like a failure for it) TIDE still has its place. But that’s not what R’ Hirsch meant by TIDE.

RSRH himself(R. Klugman’s biography), and R. Schwab(Tradition article) made the first point, and Rav Dessler discussed the second.

“All those I know who have studied RSRH seriously are struck by how much more relevant his thought is today than when he committed it to paper a century and a half ago”

A seminal figure in America who made use of RSRH’s writings was Rav SF Mendelowitz; perhaps aspects of R. Shraga Feivel’s approach himself are also just as relevant today(eg, an appropriate broadness in education).

Comment by RJK
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I can’t apeak for anyone else, but one might consider the author’s introduction to the chochmat adam where R’ Danzig (the author and also a businessman) describes his mesora to do both and describes a lifestyle that Torah never leaves -see the famous tosfot on why we only say birchat hatora once a day and R’YBS’s famous analogy to a mother who maintains latent awareness of her baby whether near or far.

KT

More seriously, I can’t speak for the needs of Israeli Torah society, since I live here and don’t know those needs from the inside. Israeli haredi society in particular is more monolithic and has an authority system that seemingly is subscribed to by all those who chose to remain within it. Gedolei roshei yeshiva in Bnei Brak and Yerushalayim have the right to call the shots about Torah life within their communities; they seem to have very, very little need for the vision of RSRH. I am aware of how difficult the constriction is for a substantial minority within their ranks, but it is not my place to suggest that the Torah accomplishment that has been achieved for the majority should be sacrificed. So I will stick to safer ground, and speak about a community about which I know a little more.

According to the Jewish Press, that’s not what he said at all. According to the Press, he said you can’t be Hirschian today because Daas Torah said so.

What does “for the right people” mean? Does that mean if, nebach, you do not have the wherewithal for klei kodesh?

Hirsch’s understanding of the early phases of history, every specific bris with Avos, every episode of the lives of the Avos, etc. becomes a whole picture. RSRH didn’t write vertach! The Torah was one seamless theme.

I only wish that more and more people come to discover the beauty of the Torah’s message through RSRH’s understanding.