Comments on: Judaism as Counterculture http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:33:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Dave Weinstein http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367741 Dave Weinstein Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:52:52 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367741 It isn't a "similar technique". It is the same technique. It is a torture technique that the United States has prosecuted people for going back at least as far as the Spanish-American war. And yes, I consider torturing people (and there is considerable evidence that the US inquisitors have in fact tortured some people to death) morally equivalent to torturing people. The fact that you don't is something I find particularly sad. It isn’t a “similar technique”.

It is the same technique.

It is a torture technique that the United States has prosecuted people for going back at least as far as the Spanish-American war.

And yes, I consider torturing people (and there is considerable evidence that the US inquisitors have in fact tortured some people to death) morally equivalent to torturing people.

The fact that you don’t is something I find particularly sad.

]]> By: evanstonjew http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367661 evanstonjew Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:16:02 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367661 They also have the common feature that they support Bush's mistake in Iraq and his go it alone foreign policy. I would conclude that if Orthodoxy is a counterculture it is a counterculture on the extreme right of the spectrum in alliance with similar countercultal Evangelicals. If Orthodoxy was a counterculture as such one would expect equal representation on both sides of the political specrtum. After all for the last eight years and for many years before under Bush1 and Nixon, America has been undergoing a right wind resurgence. If Orthodoxy is a standing up to the established powers where have therthodox been all these years? Being machshir Guantanamo for Bush is not exactly radical. They also have the common feature that they support Bush’s mistake in Iraq and his go it alone foreign policy. I would conclude that if Orthodoxy is a counterculture it is a counterculture on the extreme right of the spectrum in alliance with similar countercultal Evangelicals. If Orthodoxy was a counterculture as such one would expect equal representation on both sides of the political specrtum. After all for the last eight years and for many years before under Bush1 and Nixon, America has been undergoing a right wind resurgence. If Orthodoxy is a standing up to the established powers where have therthodox been all these years? Being machshir Guantanamo for Bush is not exactly radical.

]]> By: Yehoshua Friedman http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367583 Yehoshua Friedman Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:16:42 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367583 #2 Dave Weinstein: Do you really believe that the use of a similar technique to one used in the Inquisition is morally equivalent? Here there is public oversight and media watch. Here the ultimate objective is information rather than to torture the "sinner" to near death and then hand him/her over to the secular executioner. Are you so slow on the uptake as to believe what you are saying or (I hope) have you just let your rhetoric get away with you? #2 Dave Weinstein: Do you really believe that the use of a similar technique to one used in the Inquisition is morally equivalent? Here there is public oversight and media watch. Here the ultimate objective is information rather than to torture the “sinner” to near death and then hand him/her over to the secular executioner. Are you so slow on the uptake as to believe what you are saying or (I hope) have you just let your rhetoric get away with you?

]]> By: Asher Heber http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367490 Asher Heber Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:43:53 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367490 הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג Rambam אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו--הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג Rambam
אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו–הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם–הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן

]]> By: Asher Heber http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367489 Asher Heber Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:40:34 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367489 הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו--הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם--הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן הלכות ממרים פרק ג הלכה ג
אבל בני אותן הטועים ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו במינות, וגידלו אותן עליו–הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס; ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודיים ודתם–הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם. כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותם בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה; ולא ימהר אדם להורגן

]]> By: Gershon Josephs http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367471 Gershon Josephs Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:25:33 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367471 "And, interestingly, each is also an observant Jew." Observant, but not OrthoDOX (as has been reported about Lieberman for example). You think this too is a "Demonstrated willingness to stake out unpopular positions that they regard as morally correct and stand by them at significant personal cost"? “And, interestingly, each is also an observant Jew.”

Observant, but not OrthoDOX (as has been reported about Lieberman for example). You think this too is a “Demonstrated willingness to stake out unpopular positions that they regard as morally correct and stand by them at significant personal cost”?

]]> By: Ori http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367468 Ori Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:43:41 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367468 Orthodox Jews aren't the only ones who see their religion as counter-cultural. The same can be said for <a HREF="http://regularthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/05/sign-of-contradiction.html" rel="nofollow">Catholics</a> and <a HREF="http://www.philvischer.com/?p=99" rel="nofollow">evangelical Protestants</a>. Any religion that takes itself seriously will be counter-cultural in a society that isn't predominately of that religion. Orthodox Judaism isn't counter-cultural in Bnei Brak, for example. Orthodox Jews aren’t the only ones who see their religion as counter-cultural. The same can be said for Catholics and evangelical Protestants.

Any religion that takes itself seriously will be counter-cultural in a society that isn’t predominately of that religion. Orthodox Judaism isn’t counter-cultural in Bnei Brak, for example.

]]> By: Dave Weinstein http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367467 Dave Weinstein Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:35:52 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367467 Let me get this straight. A torture technique invented by the Spanish Inquisition is defended using the same arguments that Nazi Interrogators used during their War Crimes trials, and you find this praiseworthy? Let me get this straight.

A torture technique invented by the Spanish Inquisition is defended using the same arguments that Nazi Interrogators used during their War Crimes trials, and you find this praiseworthy?

]]> By: Baruch Gitlin http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/02/judaism-as-counterculture/#comment-367456 Baruch Gitlin Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:22:44 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/?p=1516#comment-367456 A very good article, but another irony the author did not mention is that within the Orthodox world itself, or at least within the Israeli haredi Orthodox world, such figures as Rav Nosson Kaminetski and Rabbi Natan Slifkin are hounded by the establishment for expressing opinions that deviate from the norm, even though according to many respected Orthodox rabbaim, these opinions are within the parameters of acceptable Orthodox Jewish belief. I think we should consider this situation carefully before we pat ourselves on the back too hard for our intellectual honesty and courage. A very good article, but another irony the author did not mention is that within the Orthodox world itself, or at least within the Israeli haredi Orthodox world, such figures as Rav Nosson Kaminetski and Rabbi Natan Slifkin are hounded by the establishment for expressing opinions that deviate from the norm, even though according to many respected Orthodox rabbaim, these opinions are within the parameters of acceptable Orthodox Jewish belief. I think we should consider this situation carefully before we pat ourselves on the back too hard for our intellectual honesty and courage.

]]>