Comment by Eliyahu”

Anyone living in EY curently?
We all would love to turn the clock back to the glory days of Rav Dessler, Rav Yaakov and Rav Moshe, RZSA, etc. when no kannoim encouraged destructive bans and all forms of kosher entertainment were tolerated. “I remember when…”

But Chareidi leadership, for better or for worse, has moved on with new gedolim at the helm. If you don’t like the way they are handling things in klal yisroel, speak to them about it. Not to me.

I wholeheartedly agree.
These editorials which criticize the chareidi establishment’s modus operandi is really a criticism of the chareidi leadership structure. The average chareidi on the street is not responsible for the ban-reflex to every chinuch crisis. It is hard to understand what these editorials can accomplish in terms of practical implemetation on the ground.
What is the theory behind opinion-pieces in general? Why are opinion-makers a good thing to have in a chareid society when they turn their guns on the leadership and social policy issues?
These questions should be addressed directly by Mishpacha Magazine.

My speculatons (take ‘em or leave ‘em) are:
1)One could say a positive reason is that these editorials are really aiming at the kaniom and the “handlers” of the gedolim only. The opinion pieces are trying to give them a bad name and make their positions socially unacceptable to the chareidi public at large.
Maybe this will make kanoim less influential, but I don’t really see the logic in that reasoning. These kanoim, with all their righteous indignation, go straight to the top! They don’t care about the man on the street’s opinion of him or all unintended consequences of bans. He will not held accountable for them because he didn’t to the actual signing. That’s the whole problem.

2) The less acceptable motive (in my mind) for editorials against public policy of chareidi leadership is to start a grass-roots movement that will swell with time and care to form a critical mass of discontent by the public for its current mode of leadership and decision-making process.
The opinion-makers want change. They may not be sure what exactly the type of changes they want, or they may really want the gedolim to take charge and make what they feel are necessary changes. But the route to getting any change to happen, they think, is through popular discontent with the system.

3) The least acceptable motive (IMO) is that this type of opinion-making in the media is really custom-made for a fully democratic society where the popular opinion really sets public policy in the long-run. Somehow, because we are now sophisticated chareidim with sophisticated print media of our own, we need to have the sophisticated opinion pieces that are critical of anything that deserves criticism in our society. That’s what all sophisticated people do, so we do it too.

(Sorry for the mussar schmooze)
Maybe the answer is “all of the above”?
Anybody else have other suggestions about what is the constructive point of a editorial that is critical of public policy that is apparently aimed at chareidi leadership?

http://www.alternet.org/story/35753/

Dati-Leumi Rabbis are threatening to ban service in the IDF, because of the increasing pressure for “Gender Integration” — Pritzus — there.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3508063,00.html

Here is a link to women-only train cars in Tokyo, Japan:

http://everyday.3yen.com/2005-04-12/women-only-trains-in-tokyo/

Sorry, those are the only links I have to date. It’s obvious, I think, that women feel uncomfortable being thrown-together with men. That’s the reason for the increasing popularity of women-only taxis.

Here is a refreshing perspective on the issue from Shira Schmidt of Jerusalem:

http://www.chicagojewishnews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238

The following assessment, made by R. Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg regarding one of the goals of R. Yisrael Salanter’s Mussar movement, seems relevant to the above, (Artscroll “Reb Shraga Feivel” pg 196, quoting “Men of the Spirit”, pg 243):

“Rejection of the secular Haskalah is not enough…It is the nature of a new cultural trend to seep in through small crevices. Fighting it with prohibitions and excommunications alone will not stem the tide, for the spirit of man is not to be stemmed by mere force.

The suppression of the spirit in itself is of no value. It cuts short spiritual development and results in but a spiritual sterility. The sole defense against a cultural movement breaking in from the outside is the establishment of an opposing cultural force, and the opening of doors to a fresh trend of thought, stemming from the very depth of our Jewish soul”.

My comment, as in the quotation from the current post, is that R. Yisrael Salanter(and R. Shraga Feivel who followed his approach in this aspect) would not say that that some form of defenses are not vital, rather that defenses, in of themselves, do not make for inner development.

- both are modes of transposrtation?

http://www.springwise.com/transportation/cabs_for_and_by_women_update/

SHLOMO–Your point is well taken. The women are requesting the separate seating for their own physical protection.

Would you kindly consider the possibility that HAREIDI MEN ARE REQUESTING THE SEPARATE SEATING FOR THEIR OWN SPIRITUAL PROTECTION.

The best way to silence a voice of reason is to give it a title and say we are not they. The shtark yeshivish vs. Modern yeshivish is the next front in the battle -Anonymous

Interesting question - who are the readers of Mishpacha? zadok suggests it’s the baalei-batim who support the kollel families, not the kollel families themselves. Anyone have demographics on Mishpacha readership?

Hillel, I see the links for Mexico and Dubai, but I don’t see any information about this ‘revolution’ in other countries. Furthermore, your comparison is absurd. In those cases, it’s the women who want this. In this case, it seems, it’s being forced down the throat of people who are intimidated by violent ‘kanoim’. Or is the resulting Chillul Hashem also supported by 100% of the Gedolim?

Re: Separate seating for women on buses: You wrote:
“But there is something called the real world and unintended consequences, and it’s my understanding that 100% of the Gedolim do not support the actual imposition of this.”

I’m sorry, but this idea is sweeping the entire world. Women are tired of sexual abuse on crowded trains and buses. Here are some links for you explore:

http://www.springwise.com/transportation/cabs_for_and_by_women_update/

http://www.rtp.gob.mx/

In Mexico City, where millions of women bus riders have long endured groping and verbal abuse en route every day, a new, women-only bus service aims to create a safer and more comfortable ride.

Mexico City created women-only subway cars years ago, and police reportedly enforce the segregation at rush hour…

Women-only buses and (subway) trains have also appeared in Egypt, India, Brazil, Taiwan, the Philippines and Japan, along with taxis in the UK, Russia, India, Dubai and Iran. This trend shows no sign of waning;

Your post is scary:
“When a noted Rosh Yeshiva whom I greatly respect confides in me that he can’t intervene in these issues b/c he’ll be thrown out of town, then, we’ve got ourselves more than a problem, we have an epidemic.”

This means that we are losing the war to maintain our Torah standards, because the public relations/advertising assault on our community is succeeding.

We have no choice but to fight fire-with-fire and start an effective public relatios campaign within our own community immediately.

The barbarians are at the gates!

I suppose that 100% of the Gedolim support this as a theoretical proposal. But there is something called the real world and unintended consequences, and it’s my understanding that 100% of the Gedolim do not support the actual imposition of this.

You have a hit the nail on the head-except that in today’s day, heads and tails are upside down.

What a sad world it is when heads of our society are afraid of the frumkeit (see Alei Shor or Making of a Gadol for a defintion) of the supposed masses-then the tail is indeed wagging the dog (see the Gemara on Ikvesa D’Meshicah)

When a noted Rosh Yeshiva whom I greatly respect confides in me that he can’t intervene in these issues b/c he’ll be thrown out of town, then, we’ve got ourselves more than a problem, we have an epidemic.

I personally know Gerer who have thrown out their videos because of the ban. These Gerer Chassidim also follow the Rebbe’s guidelines, even if they personally have a different opinion. This shows the maturity of this community. They realize that survival in this hostile world of Sodom and Gomorrah requires discipline, sacrifice, and unity.

As to the reason why other communities do not accept bans from their Gedolim so readily, think p-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a.–They are influenced by the constant barrage of the immoral, materialistic media: Tv, Internet, Newspapers, Talk Shows, Workmates, Billboards…you get the idea.

With so much “static” in the environment, it is very difficult for our Gedolim to get their messages heard and accepted–Too bad!

That’s interesting. I wonder what my Rav’s reaction would be if the next time he gives a strong mussar shmooze, I would accuse him of that.