I am not Chabad. Nonetheless, I don’t know what you are talking about. All Poland followed SAHarav! The litvishe followed the Chayei Adam, and subsequently the Aruch hashulchan and Mishna Brura. The talmidim of the SAHarav (lubavitchers) and others who have always followed SAHarav (various Polish chassidim) can continue to follow him! Different communities will follow somewhat different poskim and this is how it always was, and how it should be.

“Perhaps I wasn’t clear but I do feel my comments are entirely fair. For a Lubavitcher, if the Shulchan Aruch says “A” and another source says “B”, then the halachah is “A” for everyone, even non-Lubavitchers.”

This has nothing to do with Lubavitch. For example, I was once in the sukkah in an apartment building and a chassidishe guy came over to an Oberlander and said “who eats in the sukkah shmini atzeres? Not heimishe yidden!” The Oberlander said, the gemara says to eat shmini atzeres! The chassidische guy was stunned to learn that it’s the minhag not to eat that requires justification, if any minhag does. He had no idea. I have encountered the concept that it’s not “heimish” to eat in the sukkah on SA from others too.
I guarantee that there are litvishe who think that “the halacha” is what the MB says and will tells others, who may be following the Aruch Hashulchan or the SAHarav what they’ve learned in MB. This is parochialism, nothing else.
Not everyone is going to be expert in all halacha seforim - halvei everyone who follows SAHarav knew all SAHarav, those who follow MB were experts in MB, etc

Oich mer an avlah! Have we reached the point where we can’t find a worse complaint about Chabad?
If you walk into any Lubavitcher Chinuch Mosad and call out the name “MENACHEM MENDELLLLl….” you will have hundreds of children responding to your call.I have three grandchildren with that name which can be a quite a cause of confusion when the whole family gets together on rare occasions.I say rare because all my children are shluchim.Some in the farthest reaches of the world. So yes I am correcting you. Apology accepted.

First, just to clarify things, I am not Lubavitch, but I daven in a Chabad shule and I have hung around with them, off and on, for decades.

Now, I listen to their anti- rantings, and then I ask, what is their personal experience with Lubavitchers? Do they know any very well? Often the answer is, “No”. I then point out the weakness of their position because they are only recounting lashon hara. It usually doesn’t matter and I just stop responding and listen, as I don’t think I’m going to accomplish anything positive by argueing.

Sure, Lubavitchers ain’t perfect. They certainly are big fans of their mesora, and their rebbe, maybe too much. But I like to look at the good side of person. We all have our flaws. If we were only judged by our flaws, we could all be deemed rashoim. When I was looking to get married, when I was asked what I was looking for in a wife, about the only requirement I had was that I was looking for someone who could love me in spite of my flaws.

I love Chabad in spite of their flaws. I love the YU folks in spite of their flaws. We are all Klal Yisroel, and we owe each other no less. And part of that love is respect, and civil discourse and disagreement.

One unique strength of Chabad that I rarely if ever hear mentioned is their Ahavas Yisroel. They are about as good as it gets in this regard. I think Moishe himself would find them admirable in this regard. Think of it. Who goes voluntarily to the most inhospitable places in the world just to take care of other Jews? And it’s not a hobby, like it is for so many of us, but a life dedicated to such persuits. Sure, there are others who do it. They set up shop in such terrible places as Brooklyn, Baltimore, Cleveland, LA. You don’t find Aish branches in places like small-town campuses. Not that I fault Aish, they do valuable work, it’s just that there is meserash nefesh, and then there is meserash nefesh.

I also get really upset when I see these Rebbe-Moshiah banners and signs all over the place. It’s not that I really care what a guy’s personal religious beliefs are. That is a matter between him and Hashem, and it’s none of my business. However, the Rebbe dedicated a major part of his life to building a movement with one purpose - to bring Jews back. In my eyes, that is enough reason to hold him in the highest esteem. If you want to throw in his learning and other wonderful character traits, it only adds to the honor that he deserves. And until his death, I don’t think I recall any serious objections to the Rebbe. But now, these M’s, perhaps with the best intentions, but misguided nevertheless, are, by their actions, causing this great man to be subjected to insults and dishonor, and I can’t forgive them for that — and I’m not even a Lubavitcher!!!

One reason I hang out so much with with Chabad is, even if you want to say that they are stuck with their own siddur and Shulchan Aruch and customs, is that I have never known a place where someone with a different derech can feel as welcome and accepted. Ever notice how a Chabad shule tends to attact a rather motely crowd of social misfits and weird-o’s? It drives a lot of people away from such minyans. But that’s a big mistake. Think about why such lost souls find a place among Chabad. It seems to me that Chabad will accept, even love them, and take care of them, when others won’t. What does that say about their inner essence? Isn’t that how we are supposed to treat other Jews? How come only Chabad is famous for it? Shouldn’t all shules aspire to be a haven for the outcasts and rejects?

And in some ways, it depends on how you look at these outcasts and social rejects. I’ve noticed that they are often some of the finest people around. Sure, they don’t have much fashion-sense. They don’t seem to care about such nonsense. They are not objectionable if you only realize that they are not concerned about the externialities and facade that so many of us erect around ourselves. They are often kind, sensitive, caring individuals. Rough diamonds, perhaps. Often full of midos that we can aspire to. But because they don’t dress nice, a lot of people are afraid to get close to them. Pity.

In the end, I choose to surround myself with people of uncommon character. I look around my shule, at the Lubavitchers and the hangers-on, and I am happy and satisfied. I’ve found a place where some of the finest Erlich Yidden congregate and I want to be among the finest.

(click) Rant Off

Lubavitchers share with Klal Yisrael the custom of naming children after their manhigim and tzadikim. Witness, the many Shneur Zalmans and Dov Bers in Chabad communities. I would like to know how many Menachem Mendels there are amongst the non-meshichist Lubavitchers. In Satmar, a very large percentage of men in the 26-27 age group are named Yoel, as nearly every family that had a boy soon after the Rebbe’s perira chose that name, unless they had an actual chiyuv. We would expect to find the same in Chabad. Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are actually very few Menachem Mendels. If so, we could take this a strong indication of a lack of sincerity amongst the so called non-meshichists.

PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong and I apologize up front if there are actually large numbers of Menachem Mendels of which I am not aware.

One of the common complaints against Chabad here is that they change the Mesorah, the traditions of the Jewish people. Never having received most of the Mesorah myself I am not competent to have an opinion on that.

What I do know, however, is that different environments require different customs. Take for example candle lighting at an Orthodox family. The father just got back from synagogue. The mother worked hard all day to prepare for Shabbat. The table is set, and soon the mother will light the candles, the father will do Kiddush, and then the family will all eat together. Shabbat is and have always been a meaningful part of their lives. There is no reason for the six years old daughter to light her own candles.

Take the same situation at an assimilated family. The father is sitting in front of the computer or the TV. The mother is microwaving some TV dinners for the kids. The parents know that this is Shabbat, but it doesn’t mean much for them.

In this environment, it is very useful to have the six year old daughter remember how much she enjoys lighting candles and ask her parents to let her do that. This is the environment where Chabad is trying to inject Judaism, and therefore it makes sense for Chabad to say it’s good for six year old girls to light candles. I wonder how many Chabad customs are different for that reason.

Shabbat Shalom / Shavua Tov, depending on when you read this.

Post 45 writes: “the tzitzis are different , need a gartel around tzitzis, seder habrochos, nusach hatefilah, atifas hatalis, tallis itself, hanochas hatifilen, the ksav (w/is kineged the psak of the Admor hazokein -as mentioned in igros moshe) , kesher batim, seder kadeshim,hagboh, wearing of gartel only for married… amiras tehillim for elul -a kabolo claimed in name of BESH”T , that no other chasidim have, silichos are different.
sukah -not sleeping in it” et cetera ad nauseam.

I challenge benshaul to find a single one of these “minhagim” that are not either me’ikkar halachah or well-founded in halachah, or at least in hidur mitzvah! Moreover, I challenge him to find a single one of these that is not practiced by some others as well for these very reasons.
By the same token, I challenge him to find a single “other” group that does not have its own customs and practices. And this applies not only to differing Chassidic groups ( just look at the plethora of published anthologies of unique minhagim in differing dynasties – Tzans, Rizhin, Koidenov, Spinka, Karlin, Munkatch, Zyditchov etc. etc.). The only difference may be that in the other groups these are followed by “beis horav” and those close to them – even as it used to be in Chabad before these minhogim were published and discussed by their Rabeyim.

For that matter, different Sefardic communities have altogether differing customs. Likewise with non-Chassidic Ashkenazim. The minhagei Hagro differed radically from the norm and were/are followed only by the “perushim”, the close circle of the Gra’s disciples and their descendants. Nowadays you also have the published practices and customs followed by the disciples of the Chazon Ish and the Steipler. The Chazon Ish’s she’urim etc. are a revolutionary change from universal norms. And then, of course, you have the unique practices of Brisk, and the list goes on and on.
In the eyes of these critics/skeptics, however, “only” Chabad his diverged from “klal Yisroel” with its minhagim, and therefore must be condemned! The facts speak for themselves, so go and open your eyes for a change.

Whats so terrible for spreading a view from Chazal? The fact it’s “all over the map” - is only because Chabad is “all over the map”. Why is that to be held against us? The fact Chabad pops up everywhere is somehow now held against us. Why?

There are yidden “all over the map” who are dying a spiritual death. Secularism, etc. is a mortal enemy to the Yidishe nation. When will the velt wake up that its time to put some gloves on and fight the “fire” that is consuming the vast majority of Yidden. You probably know the statistics; how many of todays reform and conservative grandchildren will be Jewish in 2 generations? It aint pretty the forecast. There is a fire going on. A holocaust. Let’s get to work.

However, several of the Lubavitchers on the forum have said that the Meshichist issue is nothing more than an excuse to bash Chabad, and then go on the warpath against those who criticize Chabad for any reason. An extreme example of this comes from Rabbi Heber, “The greatest Mesiras Nefesh that most of the Chabad bashers have is what color designer gatges to put on in the morning and they have the audacity to villify Chabad and its Shluchim.” (”Hopeful Sign For Chabad? Comment No. 42).

Once the genie is out of the bottle, it’s difficult to get it back in. Rabbi Heber does not need to defend Chabad minhagim, but he should realize that when so many of them put Chabad practice at variance with most if not nearly all of the observant community, it creates a pattern and sends a message. (I will admit there are other chasidim with minhagim at variance with the “norm.” However, in my experience, none with so many, and none who promote theirs with such effort. My son learned in the Stoliner yeshiva for five years. There are quite a few unusual Stoliner minhagim, but my son never learned any of them. The yeshiva kept them out of the chinuch, at least for non-Stoliners.

I would also like to add a point about the “shape of the menorah” issue. It is true that there are mekoros for the shape Chabad uses. However, until the last 25 years or so, menorahs of that shape were never so visible or ubiquitous. It’s as if Chabad took a symbol from chazal and started putting it up all over the map where it had never been seen before. This is why people have taken exception.

as i said i hang around chasideshe kriezen so i am familiar with minhogey chasidim. chabad does it different than all other chasidim, and to an extent unparalleled by anyone else.

just to list a few -lets start from beginning of day. [w/o getting into the halachic details of the differences, I leave that to you to know ...]
the tzitzis are different , need a gartel around tzitzis, seder habrochos, nusach hatefilah, atifas hatalis, tallis itself, hanochas hatifilen, the ksav (w/is kineged the psak of the Admor hazokein -as mentioned in igros moshe) , kesher batim, seder kadeshim,hagboh, wearing of gartel only for married,
we forgot to mention the “chiyuv” of eating before davening against the psak of admor hazokein.

this is just in the first 2 hours of the day!!!!
a few more [i am not that much of expert on minhogei chabad] amiras tehillim for elul -a kabolo claimed in name of BESH”T , that no other chasidim have, silichos are different.
sukah -not sleeping in it, -against the psak of admor hazokein. a practice NEVER mentioned in kisvey chabad till maharyatz!
not decorating sukkah -except for pictures of rebbe and 770
order of tying lulav, ushpizin of 7 chabad rebbes (really now!!)
single girls bentching licht, menorah in public, different shape menorah.

and something that will come up in next year the brocho of shehechyonu on birchas hachamoh, again a new innovation of chabad kineged ALL poskim.

THIS without being an expert in halacha or minhogei chabad.
yes all chasidim have SOME diffrent minhogim , and it can be argued that many of these changes [but not all] have a mekor in halacha, but that is missing the point. this is a lot and i have just given a small sample….

btw -cute response ,but you ignored the substance!!! of the rest of my post…….

The presence of hundreds of thousands of Russian non-Jews in Eretz Yisrael today has nothing to do the “Mi Hu Yehudi” debate. They are there because of the clause in the Law of Return that grants automatic Israeli citizenship to the non-Jewish spouses of Jews and to non-Jews who claim at least one Jewish grandparent. They did not enter the country as Jews, and they never underwent any type of “giyur”, “k’halachah” or otherwise. As matters stand now, at least, if the Rabbis who are agitating for the wholesale conversion of these Russians without insisting on “kabbalas ol mitzvos” are succesful, people will already be used to the fact that the nationality written in someone’s “teudat zahut” is not reliable proof of his halachic status.

And Rav Shach never advocated returning land unconditionally. What he held is that holding onto land is not worth the price of a single Jewish life. He was for returning land if that would bring true peace and save lives, not for entering blindly into “peace agreements” that consist only of empty promises (what Ehud Barak once termed “the peace of the ostrich”). If you are looking to history to provide a verdict on such a position, then the peace treaty with Egypt would be a far better example than Oslo.

Actually, what Rav Shach held with regard to Mi Yehudi was that the secular government of Israel would never give in on the issue, so we should not make too much of it. He warned that by doing so, we would unite the enemies of Torah against us. His prediction proved right; thanks to Mi Yehudi, the secularists of Israel and the Conservative and Reform Jews of the USA, who had never before joined in a united front, united against the Orthodox. For the first time, the Conservative and Reform movements involved themselves in the politics of the WZO and the Jewish Agency and made their voices heard in Israel. And the secularists listened and sought to help them, since they decided that they, too were the enemies of the Orhodox in Israel.

Arthur Hertzberg, a self-confessed apikorus and kofer be’ikur, made the quip twenty years ago that a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as large as that of Herzl should be put up in the WZO assembly as his influence in shaping it (for the worse, from our point of view) was so great.

“And to you, L-rd, is kindness for you repay to man according to his deeds.”

I think the history of the last decade-and-a-half has already spoken its verdict on those points. Thanks to land concessions and “peace agreements” over 1000 Jews were murdered in Arab terror attacks in our cities and towns. Thanks to keeping the word “KeHalachah” out of the Law of Return there are now up to 1 million Goyim officially considered Jews living in the “Jewish State”; some of whom are responsible for visiting Neo-Nazi vandalism and violence in recent years. All of this comes with the official Hashgachah of Degel HaTorah and “Sh’earith Yisrael”. But the Rebbe warned against all of this decades earlier. Those who failed to listen reap the whirlwind today. Short answer; it’s your dime.

I preface this by saying that my knowledge on this issue is spotty at best.

I don’t consider the Rebbe’s nesius as a halachically binding thing. I consider him the spiritual leader of the generation, about which Rambam, I believe, has written can only be one. Meaning that there is a Moshe Rabbeinu, a neshama klalis, in every single dor. This is the conclusion of quite a bit of learning I’ve done on the topic but that is just it - it is the tachlis and I don’t remember specific sources unfortunately, with the exception of perek beis of Tanya, which details at least one aspect of this topic. For more, or any for that matter, detail, I invite you to speak to a more learned Lubavitcher or the like.

I think that when Moshiach is revealed, however, that listening to a navi who by then will be proven becomes a halachic issue. Mind you I don’t think the Rebbe held Moshiach can come min hameisim (yes that means I think the Rebbe is NOT Moshiach, although he had the potential before the histalkus) and there are obviously some chassidim that disagree with me. One of us is mistaken. Mistakes are not kefira, which not a single posek has called it. Yet I digress..

Of course I would prefer that the entire klal yisroel followed the Rebbe’s haraos. But that by no means is to say that the Rebbe or any Lubavitcher ever considered a different derech or shita treif. Take cholov stam for example. R’ Feinstein zt”l held it is mutar al pi halacha. Lubavitcher poskim disagree. That means I would never eat it myself or even eat from kelim that had cholov stam on them; but I would never, c”v consider that somebody that holds by that shita and follows R’ Moshe’s ruling to be eating treif. Adarabba! I’m glad that most dairy in the US is now considered kosher according to a very prominent opinion. That means that less treif is being consumed by yidden, B”H.

Eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chaim…

I would like to know from those on this blog more learned than me: What is the din of someone who refuses to follow the nasi’s rulings?

You are right, there can only be one Nasi HaDor. And yes, I consider him your nasi as well. But you are free to disagree.

Yes, today there is a very wary attitude towards chabad!! But that is because of some of the things they have done that clashed with the mesorah of the rest of klal yisroel. And yes they did call the rebbe the nasi doreinu, and really don’t recognize gadlus in anyone besides their own, unless they can be shown to be buying into chabad. there is more to say but ……
Its time for chabad to be honest about its own condescension towards everyone else, and realize that perhaps that is the reason for their feeling of estrangement. “kimayim ponim el ponim….

By holding that he is the Nasi HaDor, you have appointed him our Nasi as well.

“Nobody says you have to consider him your nasi.” There can only be one Nasi HaDor, if the Lubavitcher Rebbe is him, then you are saying we must consider him as such.

In response.

All this is total bobe maisaes - and a booich svroa. Let me tell you some facts about chabad. If you walk into a chabad yeshivah you will see the bochrim learn Gemoro from 10 am till 7 pm with a break for lunch. All this time is spent learning gemorra with meforshim - l’iyuno (in deapth), and the afternoon, gemorra l’girsa (in breadth). The last hour is shulchon Oruch. There is 1.5 hours in the morning and evening for chassidud. So the vast majority is gemmorro. And then people have the nerve to assert chabad is teaching a “facade”, and not real Yidishket. Chabad learn the same Gemorro as the velt same chumash, the same halacha, but people accuse chabad of no real Judaism.

I thank the editor for showing the products of Chabad which he quoted from the New York Times and the Concord. This is what Chabad produces. Real frumer erlicher Yidden who go out into the secular world and make a Kidush Hashem. If you want to know what Chabad is - look at the Baal Teshuvah products they produce.

The Rebbe has built an empire which is only growing. Today in Australia and the United Kingdom and in South Africa the majority of non-Chabad shulls have a Chabad Rabbi. Chabad is sending out new Rabbi’s, new shluchim at a rate of 2 a week! Compare that with the what Yeshivah University is producing 25 pulpit Rabbis this past year. Chabad’s annual budget has been reported to be (in Sue Fishkoff’s book) over $1 Billion a year - by far the biggest frum organization in the world. Chabad hasn’t built this by criticizing others. To be successful takes a lot of hard work and a lot of m’siras nefesh by thousands willing to live at the edge of poverty for the sake of other Yidden.

Action speak louder than words.

3. We all are experiencing today the affect of indoctorinating childeren to think in a certain different way in what the Palestinainas teach their children (Chill, I am not going to compare Chabad to them). What Chabad has done has educated two generations of people to think in a certain way so that it is impossible for them to think otherwise. This is a very simple two stop process. A. The Rebbe is the Nosi of the Dor and a “potential Moshiach”. B. The Nosi of the Dor and most potential Moshiach is part and parcel of believing that Moshiach is coming any second. This is very clear in speaking to any Chabadnik under the age of 30. They are shocked that anyone would perhaps suggest that the Rebbe wasn’t the Nosi of the Dor (a term most others never really thought about, but if they did they would have other candidates). Once they were educated that he was (and they were taught that we think he was as well)it is very small leap that he is Moshiach. As one Lubavitcher chassid who was in my home said to me, “why wouldnt he be, who else?”

In response:

2. That’s nonsense. Nobody in Lubavitch holds that a mikvah is treif if it is not bor al gabei bor. It’s just that the Alter Rebbe holds that that is the best way to build a mikvah so lchathilla if you (a Lubavitcher who follows Shulchan Aruch HaRav as halacha l’maisa) are building a new mikvah or if you have the choice of bor al gabei bor or not, then go with that one. As an example, there is now a Lubavitch semicha program in Lakewood. I know the bochurim personally and know for a fact that all of them use a misnagdishe mikvah, as have I. Although we hold bor al gabei bor is better. That’s our shita - other opinions are not treif. Why is this so awful?

3. All Lubavitchers hold that the Rebbe is the Nasi Hador and was during his physical life the potential moshiach. Our next nasi will be moshiach himself. No one is disputing that. I am personally of the opinion that the histalkus now disqualifies him from being moshiach today, which I have concluded based on the Rebbe’s own words; some of my fellow chassidim disagree. One of us is mistaken. But that’s all it is, a mistake. Not kefira, which not a single posek has called it. Just a mistake, which, unless you are a tzaddik, you also make every single day. Why is that driving a few yidden so crazy? No, we are not shocked that most do not share this view. Anybody that is has lived a very sheltered existence. Nobody says you have to consider him your nasi. but why deprive us of believing that? What is so treif here?