Now I can detail my thoughts a bit more.

Recently I questioned the exclusively-learning approach in a discussion with a chassidic-charedi Rebbetzin, to which she replied that nowadays the anti-religious influences are so great that the only way our men will survive is by a life in learning.

While I can understand the concern, I wonder to what extent this new justification for kollel-forever is a byproduct of sheltering our men so aggressively for so long.

Another reason no one would ever strike down a life of learning is because Torah learning should be the highest aspiration for every growing boy, and every man for that matter. (I’m not getting into al mnat laasot - learning for what societal purposes - here.)

I once heard a parenting lecture which included a serious caution, said to be straight from the counsel of Rav Shach zt’l, that after age nine boys should not study any hobbies (carpentry, music, etc.) because it could distract them from learning. The lecturer explained the rationale, that they should see their sole purpose as learning Torah, not to simultaneously develop other pursuits (for future parnassah or otherwise). She went on to say that preparing one’s high school age son with any secular studies “just in case” he doesn’t become a Gadol is selling him short, and risking the higher goal altogether.

But who’s to say that restricting children and adults from hobbies, or even professions, doesn’t sell them short as well? While too much individualism leads to everyone being his own judge, too much rigidity hampers Klal Yisral from using its varied strengths. (For example, how did Rav Vaya get so interested in bugs? Either he helped his wife in the kitchen, or liked gardening, or liked the outdoors, etc. And look what we have from that.)

While history books are no proof of reality, I got the impression that the Gedolim of the Old Yishuv in Jerusalem held their PR agents and political consultants in the highest esteem, and they obviously were coming from very active work histories. Yet today someone in such a role makes quite a personal sacrifice, as many “Bnei Torah” will question whether that “professional” can adequately represent them. For example, the reaction to the metzitza b’peh (a circumcision procedure) publicity in the US a few years ago.

If the tune of Torah-only-forever could be modified to Torah-primarily-foralongtime, and the Gedolim could guide us to appreciate everyone as necessary contributors and not as learners vs. sell-outs, then we can all stop complaining about each other and work together. And yes then bring Mashiach (and Moshiach

While you may take issue with his metaphor as perhaps being over-the-top, the substance of JR’s post is right on target.

First, I don’t see how you can claim that the recent shift towards Torah-only is within “historical norms” either in an absolute sense or as a percentage. I’m not sure whether the frame of reference is pre-War Europe or Pumpedisa, but either way, the norm was not to learn full-time—among both the rank-and file and the Amoraim.

Today, if someone who attends a mainstream RW yeshiva does not intend to learn FT, he is not deemed to be a success story. Regardless of any deficiencies of acumen or zitzfleisch in learning and conversely regardless of any potential to be a working ben Torah, the norm is Kollel. Some are miserable but are trapped because of community pressure; others, more financially privileged, enjoy the forgiving schedule that can be “customized” to their needs. Your “eventually” caveat (for men working), without implementing a system that sets up an a priori, realistic plan is why the community is in this mess to begin with.

It also appears that there was a jab at working women, insinuating that in a part of the community this is driven by the desire for financial comfort. Yes, that may be the case for some; but for others, there may be some Hakaras Hatov deserved, inasmuch as a second income is often required in order for full-tuition paying parents (some who WOULD prefer to stay home with infants BTW) to subsidize the schooling of the Torah-only community.

Comment by Dovid Kornreich — January 6, 2008 @ 1:44 pm

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None that I know of, that actually existed, but Hirsch himself wrote with great reverence of the great yeshivos and talmidei chachamim of eastern Europe. What he had in Frankfurt wasn’t his ideal either but it did produce wonderful bala batim with yiras shomayim.

To Yitz:

any apparent contradiction between my various statements has to do with the contradiction between reality and lovely dreams

Right now there are yeshivos and kollelim and a charedi world in E’Y which is not living according to my ideal but for which I nevertheless have enormous respect. The total number of men learning Torah full time in the whole world is really not that large in proportion to the total number of Jews in the world, as I said. And despite whatever criticisms I have of the charedi world (and I have many) I do still profoundly believe that the world continues to exist in the merit of those who are learning Torah. The exact number necessary, and the exact mix of learners to earners, we can argue forever. Not every man in kollel should be there but that’s not the issue.

Ori: your friends see the worth of hospitals and classical music, but not the value of Torah. I know that. But I believe that your friends’ very lives, and the survival of everything they have built in E’Y, depends on those who learn Torah. I know they don’t understand. I know it, I know it.

The difference between me and “standard” charedim might be that I don’t think everyone should be learning and that those who are not learning, are second rate or failures. But I do believe that Klal Yisrael as a whole MUST have some full time, forever, learners.

And re 20: “Turning our kollel men into insurance salesmen and the women into soccer moms…” Oy! I’m tempted to leave it at that but this is something that must be addressed. First of all, with the economy the way it is, it is unlikely that large amounts of women will be able to stay home in the foreseeable future. But are you saying that we should not have our daughters aspire to raising their own children, to the degree possible? I’m not saying that we shouldn’t give our daughters permission to have professional aspirations, or to work at all outside the house after they have children. Nor do I believe that children left with carefully vetted, caring sitters will be messed up. But what is the world coming to? When we raise and educate our children of course the primary focus of our lives is Torah, but we can’t neglect the core value of educating our children to build batei ne’eman b’Yisrael. We have to start with what a “bnb” means. And I feel that to earn a young woman’s full respect, of course a young man has to make Torah learning and living central to his life. We don’t want our young men to learn for 3/5/7 or whatever the going rate is years after marriage, we want them to learn for life!

My apologies for the rant. This is not as carefully crafted as I would like a submission to be but I truly believe that this is one of the fundamental issues that needs to be addressed apropos R’ JR’s article.

Dovid Kornreich:
“Did any “Hirschian kehilah” you know of support full-time learners in a long-term Kollel with no feed into the rabbinate?”

1)I don’t know this for a fact, but I would bet that the well-to-do members of the Hirsch Kehilla (e.g. Baron Rothschild) DID contribute to eastern yeshivas for full-time learners.

2) Wouldn’t you agree that a significant percentage of support comes from people who did not strictly adhere to the other approach either (i.e. Torah Only)? Many people who give support did obtain a college degree or secular education of some type, which does not conform with the Torah Only approach.

I doubt it since aiui a horrat shaah is by definition revocable. IIRC R’ Schwab in “Rav Schwab on Prayer” mentions that in the future all these sfarim will be in the museum but not used. Quite the opposite, I wonder if these sages knew that their temporary emergency measure would become permanent (separate question as to how), would they have enacted it anyway?
KT

KT

Ori: I base my estimate on talking with Chiloni Israelis who resent Charedim. They see the value in hospitals and universities, and even in classical music - but not in Torah study, at least not at the current levels. Among people in their forties and younger, the financial aspect seems to be the main reason for resentment of Charedim. The old canard about military service doesn’t ring true, now that so many members of the elite find ways to avoid it.

It’s true that this hatred has deep roots, but societies change. My grandparents had to explain and justify (to themselves if to nobody else) why they threw off their parents’ observance. Members of my generation do not. They tend to be more tolerant of other beliefs in general. It is relevant to ask why they accept a lot of other things but not Charedim.

I don’t believe the resentment towards Torah and towards charedim comes from the fact that tax money is supporting full time Torah scholars. Tax money is also supporting hospitals, universities and the Philharmonic. I don’t see people spitting at violinists and professors the way they spit at Torah Jews.

The hatred towards charedim has deep roots, and a lot of it goes back to the beginning of the whole secular Zionist movement. You find it among secular Ashkenazim, much less so among Sefardim, who don’t have a history in their home countries of “Enlightenment” and its hostility towards religion.

But you do see something similar to the hatred of religion here in America and in other western countries, where the secular “intellectual” elite has a visceral fear and hatred of evangelical Christians.

Having said all that, I think it would be FAR preferable for charedi institutions to be self-supporting and not to depend on the Israeli government. Probably many secular Ashkenazim would still be hostile towards religion but it would still be ethically better and we would be so much less susceptible to political horse trading and corruption. My father zt’l believed in a Hirschian kehillah ideal, where learners and earners would live together in one community, with mutual respect, and with the earners willingly and even joyfully supporting the learners. A beautiful dream.

Ori: Maybe, but there’s a difference. Three hundred years ago the Jews who were not learning Torah full time lived next to the full time Torah scholars, tried to follow Halacha, and were willing to pay the price for having full time Torah scholars.

Today the majority of Jews are not Orthodox, do not live within the same communities as the Orthodox, and don’t see the point of paying for full time Torah scholars. In the US do you see the Reform or Conservative movements paying for Orthodox Kollels? In Israel the government puts tax money into Torah study, so you have non Orthodox Jews supporting full time Torah scholars - but at the cost of a lot of resentment towards the Torah itself.

Being on shaky financial ground in the US is dangerous. Before you trust the Israeli government to be consistent about anything, ask some of the previous inhabitants of Gush Katif if that is a good long term strategy. The high rate of full time Torah students in Charedi society may not be poison, but it is like putting the Shabbat candles where toddlers can reach it - the unintended consequences can get very bad.

Shabbat Shalom / Shavua Tov depending on when this is approved.

For example of the “bait” in this article, notice how Rosenblum calls the lawyer wife a “prominent attorney”! The word “attorney” is much more impressive than plain old “lawyer.” Why does Rosenblum want to impressive you with her job? And “prominent?!” Lawyer women aren’t the prominent ones in the Torah world! Women who support Torah, however dinky their Rolidex is, are the prominent ones!

Traditional Jewish values urge the wife to make great sacrifices so that her husband can learn Torah. Take a look at meseches kasuvos around samech gimmel for examples of much more unbelievable stores than a highly paid businesswoman making Purim costumes. Rabbi Akiva told his student servant, “Leave her! Sheli v’shelchem shelah!”

This article points Am Yisrael exactly the wrong way. Turning the Kollel men into life insurance salesmen and the women into soccer moms would not only destroy huge amounts of Torah learning, it would turn their families from a Torah life to non-Jewish life.

I think the people who are anti-kollel for the masses do not appreciate what limud Torah does on a functional level (more shiurim for baal habatim etc.) or a mystical level if you will (Torah helps the community). And SOME who are pro-kollel do not want to admit to the possible side effects(shalom bayis etc. although there are often multiple confounding factors)

Although, I think prety much everyone (”doctors and patients”) are aware of the side effects. But the issue that really might come to the fore is when the patient and the doctor are in conflict. V’hameivin yavin!!

Pretty frightening.

Another testimony to R. Scharansky’s role in reviving the ideal of Torah:
“We arrived as refugees from Vilna in 1941…looked around and saw that we would have to go to work because we wouldn’t be able to get a shiduch [match] if we learned. We came to R. Scharansky and told him our problem, and he responded, ‘Dear boys, listen to me; go and learn Tora and let me worry about setting up a Beit Ya’akov that will supply you with wives.’”

And careerist women now exist across the spectrum, I’d say even more — not fewer — in the MO world, where both spouses make a good living.

I agree that most men should [eventually] work for a living but I don’t think the charedi model in which most men are learning full time is “poison.” Compared to the total number of Jews in the world (Orthodox and non-Orthodox), the percentage of Jews who are learning Torah full-time is very small and well within historic norms.

You will not get women to leave the work force by getting their husbands into the work force, BTW. Times have changed too much. I say that sadly, as one who thinks that infants should never be separated from their mothers.

PS. I wonder if you are not looking over your shoulder after writing something like this. The askanim who photocopied choice pages out of Slifkin’s ouevre and sicced the gedolim on him may be reading Mishpacha too.

it is prudent to concentrate on cancer prevention rather than using drastic methods…..

however if it means that haredi society sees itself as dangerously ill, at least there is hope of finding a correct therapy….

If somebody tells you “X, which you and everybody around you does and believes in, has harmful side effect Y” the most natural reaction is to get defensive and say “No, I haven’t experienced Y, and neither did my friend Moshe!”. Jonathan Rosenblum preemptively says: “Y doesn’t happen in all cases, but it is common enough to be a concern”.

From my perspective as an outsider Jonathan Rosenblum is providing excellent lessons in providing gentle rebukes. I just hope that he isn’t being too gentle. Rebuke can fail by making the audience angry, or by being ignored as “this isn’t a big deal”.

Jewish Observer: I am nervous for JR that he will be thrown out of the haredi world, depriving them and us of a an important voice from within

Ori: If the haredi world throws JR out over this, it’s not worth staying in anyway. G-d gave us the ability to speak for a reason.

That is , at this point in history, a lesser problem compared to the fact that entire communities have a generational class of basically unemployable young men who have no education or skills whatsoever that will enable them to earn market rate employment in the real world and contribute to the community economy instead of being a drain on it by way of charity and underemployment (often in a pseudo-charitable position by some friend or relative that runs a school or business or charity). There are simply not enough Yeshivas, day schools, and kollels to employ these young men as Torah scholars - nor could there be. The market is pretty much already saturated.

Instead of a vibrant network of orthodox communities that are economically viable, where the young men learn trades, skills, crafts, and business studies to enable us to be nearly self-sufficient, we are heavily dependent on non-Jewish employers, welfare, and ponzi schemes - and merchandise made by foreigners. That money, which must be spent anyway for clothes, furniture, Judaica and household goods of all sorts, which should be given to our own community’s skilled laborers and craftspersons, is instead benefiting other nations’s schools, homes, and families. Instead of re-circulating in our community, it is sent away, lost forever - and the drain on our internal community economy has been devastating.

The full-time learning model has bankrupted us, basically. Women will simply never be able to earn as much as men in the marketplace, feminist arguments aside, there are times when we HAVE to take off to give birth, take care of children or elderly parents, etc. This is reality - and I am greatly concerned what effects our dysfunctional internal economy will have on us in the wake of peak oil, possible pending hyperinflation, stock market “corrections,” bank failures due to the mortgage crisis, and other things from the “outside world” that aren’t going to just leave us alone, and because we have made ourselves do dependent on the outside world economy, ignoring these things may well be fatal to our communities - yet we are ignoring them.

The only way to become self-sufficient is to start NOW remaking our internal economy back the way it is supposed to be - but I just don’t see that happening. The Yeshiva model is too firmly entrenched - and those who disagree are shunned and ridiculed, frankly, in many communities. Change has to come from the top - the last place where it can actually bloom, it seems. People fear being “different” far more than they fear being in credit card debt up to their eyeballs, losing their home due to continually taking equity out of their house, or begging for charity. “Different” is equated with “sinful” by our leaders, and I just don’t see that changing.

The end result will be more and more kids benignly neglected, along with their grandparents, and women try and be super-heroes that Hashem never intended us to be - meanwhile our internal economy goes further and further downhill and more and more need charity and more and more of our dollars we do earn are sent outside the community because the young men are not willing to get their hands dirty and learn trades, skills, and craftmanship. How can this make sense to anyone? I cannot understand.