- in ,in fact RJR believes this too, and I suspect he does, how does he reconcile with charedi gedolim who ostensibly do not believe this? this isnlt only a kushya on him, I ask it on myeslf too

(At first blush, I gloated that RJR had capitulated to the philosophy of Torah umada. On further inspection, he seems to be saying that there is much to admire “growing up Torah” in a “umada neighborhood.” But hey — I’ll take what I can get. :>) It’s progress. It’s also an encouraging and worthy follow-up to his excellent piece on das Torah and their handlers.)

However, as one of my friends is fond of quoting (against the academic study of talmud) – we don’t care what the historical Abaye thought, we care about how what he was understood to have meant by later chachmei hamesora.

KT

Stop blaming Rav Dessler for this one. He didn’t believe in insularity. He did believe we need (needed, post WWII?) gedolim badly enough to risk 999 in order to produce that 1-in-1,000. But R’ Dessler writes proudly of his father making him read Uncle Tom’s Cabin (in Yiddish). Kelm, which produced the Rs Dessler, had a HS with secular studies at a time the gov’t didn’t force them to — just because it was the right thing to do (in the Alter’s opinion) given the era they were in. Even Rav Yisrael Salanter agreed to the idea, as long as the Alter was there to keep the risks involved in check.

Volozhin was a hotbed of Isms (complete with competing Religious Zionist groups!), and people were expected to pick up secular studies — as long as they did it on their own time. The current level of insularity was actually quite rare in the Lithuanian Yeshiva they are trying to emulate.

-Micha

EXCELLENT POINTS!

Here is my thinking on the subject:

1. The Torah specifies that the first purpose of LechLacha was negative– to LEAVE BEHIND Abraham’s most intimate connections–Birthplace, Family, and Parents–to BREAK LOOSE. In fact, G-D did not speak again to Abraham until Abraham’s nephew Lot, who had accompanied Abraham on his journey, finally separated himself from him.

2. The Torah then specifies that the second purpose of LechLecha was positive–to enter the Holy Land–”El Haaretz Asher ArEka.”

3. True, there were idol-worshipping evil Canaanites in the Holy Land, but Abraham had no ties with them; he was totally independent. He could take full advantage of the spiritual power that is present in G-D’s palace, His Holy Land. Today, this would be equivalent to someone’s entering a sheltered spiritual enclave, like a Kollel, to pursue excellence.

However, we cannot draw an exact parallel to everything that Abraham did, because we must remember that Abraham was, first and foremost, the world’s pre-eminent original thinker, philosopher, and innovator. He could confront anyone, anywhere, without being influenced in the slightest from his convictions. Can we say the same about ourselves.

That’s because they go there without friends. All the other students come in with 10, 20 or 50 others coming from the same post-hs Israeli yeshiva. It’s another variation of no model to follow for the working charedi.

By the way, seeking out a mixed community in its own right does have a certain awkwardness – just imagine a community with quotas to balance the religious and irreligious population. What if one of the irreligious asks to come to your Shabbat table, would the community allow it?

A very uscientifc anecdote: I was eating a Shabbat meal in Jeruslam at the home of a prominent modern Orthodox Rav. He grew up a city in NE US where there was no Yeshiva High School, and he attended the local public high school. (He was tutored in limudei kodesh by his father, a very learned layman, and by various private tutors.) He then went to Yeshiva College and eventually received semicah from RIETS. His family was one of only about a dozen shomer shabbat families in the Orthodox shul. He remembers all the challenges and temptations– the football games on Shabbat, non-kosher parties, etc. His children grew up in mixed neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Some of his married children moved to dati-leumi yishuvim, where everyone looks and thinks (almost) the same. One of his younger grandchildren came visiting him in Jerusalem for the first time on a Shaabat, and hearing all the cars on Friday night (still relatvely few) he commented “I didn’t realize that there are so many sick people in Jerusalem.”

The Rav comented to me. “I am not sure my grandchild is better off than I was.”

I would suspect that at risk kids are more noticable in Haredi communities because they are more likely to act out. Growing up I had a solid secular education and a sense of self not solely defined in terms of Orthodox Judaism. If I ever wished to leave I could have done so while still being a functional citizen. A Haredi youth who does not want to be religious is trapped. You are setting yourself up for the type of anti-social even crimainal behavoir that gets outside notice.

“At a cerain point in the spiritual progress of a Jew, he must focus on achieving excellence and stop diverting his resources to battling the hostile environment and definiing himself.”

What is the focus of that statement?

Why the dichotomy between achieving excellence and diverting resources to battle a hostile environment? Avraham Avinu’s passed the 10 Nisyonos by doing both so I wouldn’t define battles against a hostile environment as a diversion of resources but rather an investment of them.

Even after the 10th one (Akeidas Yitzchak) and thus conclude that excellence was achieved, Avraham Avinu nonetheless had to contend with a not so ethical salesman to acquire Machpelah. Apparently the battle against hostility never ceased in the life of our primary Patriarch.

Is this hard data and the supporting information going to be made public as some form of study?

Mixed communities (as a result of the alternate pple, ideologies, etc that they are forced to interact with)
naturally create pple that are better able to handle outside negative influences , etc

As a mashgiah of a major rightwing YGedola once told me; ‘it would be better not to have to work with contagious diseases,
but if you are going to, make sure you are inoculated first (even if the inoculation will make you slightly ill)

Or as someone once told me, that it is well known in the chareidi world that a chareidi person going to YU
is at greater risk of going off the derech than a modern orthodox person.
(note for YU supporters – this is not meant to be a putdown of the the maalos of YU)

The Torah tells us that Abraham spent many years among idol worshippers, resisting their failed notions of how the world works. He steadfastly held to his observation that there is but one G-D who controls and coorsinates all the phenomena of this world, and he endured all kinds of abuse for his beliefs.

But, at a certain point, G-D revealed Himself to Abraham and told him “Lech-LeCha MeArtzeCha, UMMoldTaCha, UMeBais AveeCha”–leave your sinful country, and your sinful family–”El HaaRetz ASher ArEKa”–and go to the Land towards which I will guide you.”

At a cerain point in the spiritual progress of a Jew, he must focus on achieving excellence and stop diverting his resources to battling the hostile environment and definiing himself.

I visited the pre army academy in Eli two years ago and the dean told us that serving in the army was a major mitzvah and an intrinsic part of being a good Jew . This was before GushKatif was destroyed. The confusion and anguish in the settler community after GushKatif is itself a cause of some backsliding. I think that Religious Zionism has a greater mission than claiming each hilltop, it is to add a religious dimension to the State of Israel. This was neglected and the settler movement both invigorated the youth for a while but alienated everyone else in the country who see the settlers as trouble makers. The reason the National Religious Party fell apart is because it got to be mono-maniacle about one issue. If the chinuch in the mamlachti dati schools was better then there would be fewer soldiers leaving the fold. The most important issue now is saving our future generations for Torah and mitzvos,not turning all of Judaism into one mitzvah, settling the hillsides of Judea and Samaria. Bring back the true MIzrachi, what is now is not what the founders dreamed about.

However I wonder how we know what the dropout rates are in the various charedi communities. Perhaps the rate in Beitar, Kiryat Sefer etc. is no higher, yet the dropouts there are more apparent, because they have no secular surroundings to blend into?

Bernard Baruch(no relation) explained why he wasn’t terribly concerned about choosing the seating arrangements of dignitaries attending his parties, saying, ” I never bother about that. Those who matter don’t mind, and those who mind don’t matter”.

There are limits to this attitude, of course, and within reason a person should either “fit in”, or else look for a more “mixed” community.

This is not a new problem. What is the solution, considering that the ruling authorities consider this to be a good outcome?

As one who was raised not in a mixed Jewish community but in a virtually Judenrein town, I can attest to the fact that my joy as a young woman upon discovering my Jewish identity was experienced in precise proportion to the emptiness I had known previously, growing up without it.

But since this particular joy is not one that we baalei teshuva would wish on any child, least of all our own, many of us who consequently chose all-haredi Israeli communities in which to build our families found a beautiful compromise: live in an all-Orthodox society but maintain close relationships with our non-Orthodox relatives, and open our homes, as well, to secular Jews for Shobbos meals.

In such a fashion can some degree of balance be attained. Our children can enjoy the incredible benefits of childhood in an all-haredi community, while receiving periodic immunization through the years against secular values and worldviews.

Comment by LOberstein
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True but hard work is imho a requirement for this formula (or as Avi Mori Vrabbi ZLL”HH always taught me, Your Hishtadlut is a precondition for HKB”H’s Hashgacha pratit)

KT