(1) Someone who drove through RBS B later that evening and described it as a “mess” - the garbage dumped in the streets as is typical of an ad-hoc demonstration.

(2) Someone saw the bus pulled over by police, but was walking into a nearby store to do some shopping. When he came out (say 10 minutes later) the police were interviewing two women, and a soldier was having a yelling match with some charedim gathered around.

#2 seems to cast aspersions on the newspaper descriptions of the woman and soldier “beaten up” (as opposed to unpleasantly harassed) and police tires slashed, and perhaps make the rioters who helped the bus riders escape a bit more dubious as well.

Unfortunately this kind of news travels so quickly, that it’s nearly impossible to refute or clarify later.

KT

KT

I, too, believe that in certain areas there is a movement towards greater tolerance, namely, that greater care is taken in public statements and print publications on the organizational level in America, in both the Charedi and MO worlds; I think that one must give credit where it’s due, in that area. As far as my personal experience living in the Charedi world, I also agree with Mark that there is no demonization of the Other; people are generally busy with their own lives and not with judging what other people think or do.

Yet, there is room for improvement as well. There have been recent articles in the Jewish Observer by R. Elyahu Meir Klugman and R. Yehuda (Leo) Levi on the topic and it was mentioned at an Agudah Convention a while back.

This issue is how bright or bleak to paint the picture. I agree with Rabbi Shafran’s response to Rabbi Wein, both in the JA and on OU Radio, that one needs to emphasize the positive as well. Yet, Rabbi Wein’s article(”Weeping and Wishing”) can not simply be dismissed as one does to an irate blogger.

Bottom line, there is much positive—whether on the individual level, or regarding improvements made in organizational communication. But if people feel so strongly a certain way, to the extent that it’s called “Weeping and Wishing”, I would not say that they are imagining it, but rather that there is something to think about, if not to the extent mentioned, then at least partially so.

Comment by Gilana — October 29, 2007 @ 8:34 am

No, Gilana, you would have assured that those demanding you move would be empowered and encouraged to continue their obnoxious, belligerant behavior. You would thereby become an unwitting accessory to the chillul Hashem (s?) that will inevitably occur as they get bolder and bolder. Perhaps it was the “Gilana” before you who also acqueisced to these inappropriate demands that allowed this scene to repeat itself with you.

Thank you for your response. I guess we differ on this point:

“My point—there IS a very big problem in the Haredi world now. Violence may still be relatively rare, but it is a manifestation of an increasingly intense hatred and demonization of the rest of the world.”

I don’t know your background but if I recall, you’d affiliate somewhere other than the Hareidi community, no? Thus your perspective may be different than mine, which is as a card-carrying member of the Hareidi community, although I’d generally be considered more to the center of that group, as opposed to right-wing.

I know that it’s a given in the blogosphere that there exists “an increasingly intense hatred and demonization of the rest of the world” in the Hareidi world, but I’m sorry to say that I don’t see it nearly the way you do.

I attended a fairly typical BP HAreidi yeshivah and almost NEVER did the subject of MO come up, certainly not in the bashing sense. Of course, we knew that there are differences regarding certain hashkafos, and we believed that ours were correct but then again, so does every MO person believe about his hashkafos. There was no wholesale trashing of them as one might think.

The same went for the Mesivtah and Beis Medrash I attended in the US, again a mainstream yeshivish place. And the same was true for where I studied in EY and Lakewood.

In EY, things are different than they are in the US and any attempt to draw a parallel is bound to fail. Everything there is so much more radicalized, from secular to MO to Hareidi. In my time there I saw secular Israelis get into fistfights over a taxi fare, MO guys beating up arabs that they didn’t like and Hareidim shoving each other over a space in a falafel shop. In all my years in the sates, I’ve never seen such behavior from anyone, Jewish nor non-jewish.

I think the defensiveness comes when people see outsiders [IOW - non Hareidim - and often people who are constantly attacking all things Hareidi - I don't mean you here] read so much into a story like this one as if it was symbolic of a deep rooted issue in the Hareidi community. I’d venture that many of the people who are so sure of themselves haven’t ever lived in EY and don’t truly understand the situation there. Nor have they studied and lived in Lakewood or Boro Park/Flatbush. Much of what they opine is based upon what they’ve read from others and their opinion is just not as valid as they may think.

Perhaps mine is not either, but at least I’ve lived in all the aforementioned places for significant amounts of time and I have reason to believe that the problem is greatly overstated. That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems in the Hareidi community, but “an increasingly intense hatred and demonization of the rest of the world” isn’t one of them. If anything, there’s a movement toward greater tolerance. [As an example - Five years ago the JO ran a long Dvar Torah from a Young Israel Rabbi who's heavily affiliated with YU and heads a fairly left-wing YI. That was unheard of in the seventies and eighties.]

BTW the need for continued criticism is probably most needed from within (for all groups - I don’t think my own does near enough)

KT

Yes, I think you partially misunderstood my point, but you ask some important questions nevertheless.

My point–there IS a very big problem in the Haredi world now. Violence may still be relatively rare, but it is a manifestation of an increasingly intense hatred and demonization of the rest of the world. This includes slightly less right wing Haredi jews, non-Haredi Orthodox Jews, unobservant Jews, and to a lesser extent non Jews.

I hear this criticism from Haredi rabbonim themselves. The article I posted shows that this was already a concern back in the 1970’s.

“What troubles me about that is where do you find evidence that anyone in the Hareidi community thinks that such violence is acceptable? Who defended it? Did many people defend it to your knowledge? Are you basing your position on the fact that it hasn’t been widely condemned?”

When I say “defensive” I do not mean “defending violence” in the sense of condoning or advocating violence. What I mean is things like this: “We are less violent than others.” “The media is jumping at the opportunity to make Haredim look bad.” “How do we know that this really occurred–it may be made up.” “There is even more violence among secular Jews.” “Rabin was murdered by a modern orthdox Mizrachi-nik, not a yeshivish, Haredi Jew,” etc.

In other words, defensive reactions are those which are intended to minimize or deny the significance of the incident, and to avoid consideration of the possibility that there is a problem with hatred and anger toward “others”, and intolerance toward other Orthodox approaches to issues in hashkafa and idology.

“I assume you’re point is that therefore Hareidim should not reflexively defend themselves against criticisms of practicing unacceptably high levels of violence and should instead accept and acknowledge the legitimate criticism.”

I don’t think ANYONE should reflixively defend themsselves against criticism. This is not the derekh of Chazal or the ba’alei mussar.

The capacity for self-reflection is one of the most important middos to cultivate in human nature. Look at Haredi publications–you will not see much humility or agonizing introspection. I am putting it mildly.

I suppose what I would would like to see would be that the spiritual leaders who have advocated extreme measures to root out immodesty and modernity would show at least as much passion about rooting out the hatred and demonization of outsiders which leads to violence.

“Dr. Klafter, before I comment on your remarks, I’d like to point out that while I don’t always agree with you, I find you to be someone whose comments I look forward to reading.”

The fact that someone who disagrees with me nevertheless looks forward to reading my comments is a great compliment. Thank you.

It’s a good point about the blogosphere(and some mother-in-laws) making it difficult to talk about these important issues without heat.

However, I’ve found that even an article published in the Jewish Observer(before blogs) and Mishpacha magazine articles by a Charedi writer have sometimes caused what I perceive as defensive reactions by some(certainly not all) readers which I do not think is helpful. Granted, everyone is entitled to defend themselves, and other readers should portray the situation as a complex one, and as fairly as possible.

Be that as it may, the good news is that any resistance has been overcome regarding public discussion of other issues, so eventually it can be overcome here as well, as more people want to see a particular subject publicly discussed in a constructive manner.

Comment by Bob Miller

ABSOLUTELY! The actions of the hotheads are clearly far beyond the pale and need to be controlled, if for no other reason than they are counter-productive.

But that does not mean you should ignore the wider context.

This reminds me of what occurred in EY when I was studying there some 15 years ago — when bus stations were torched. Surely a reprehensible act worthy of condemnation.

But at the time I wondered — the ads featuring women in skimpy bathing suits which “ignited” the problem were put up in Charedi neighborhoods, including one I personally saw at a bus stop at the entrace to Geulah. How many bikinis did the company think would be sold by advertising there? It was clear that the posters were put up as a provocation.

Again, it seems to me that there is a simple way for the community to enforce its standards in a peaceful way, as I have outlined. Is it that no one has tried, or is it that the parties invovled have no interest in reaching a peaceable modus vivendi?

Before I comment on your remarks, I’d like to point out that while I don’t always agree with you, I find you to be someone whose comments I look forward to reading.

“Only a very insecure person responds with denial and defensiveness to all criticism. A secure, confident person can look at his own flaws, can acknowledge legitimate criticism.”

I assume you’re point is that therefore Hareidim should not reflexively defend themselves against criticisms of practicing unacceptably high levels of violence and should instead accept and acknowledge the legitimate criticism.

What troubles me about that is where do you find evidence that anyone in the Hareidi community thinks that such violence is acceptable? Who defended it? Did many people defend it to your knowledge? Are you basing your position on the fact that it hasn’t been widely condemned?

I also wonder what your feelings are about what constitutes legitimate criticism? Does post #459 discussing this incident from a rabidly anti-hareidi blogger qualify or must it come from a source who would generally be perceived as favorable [or at least unbiased in either direction] to qualify?

In your mind, do you think the cacophony of anti-haredi’ism that pervades the blogosphere hinder any efforts to convey sincere mussar in a manner that could be acceptable? IOW - if ones mother-in-law berated him daily for every imaginable offense, don’t you think that would hamper her ability to convey valid criticism?

I’m really curious about your opinion n this matter or please correct me if I misunderstood your point in the first place. Thanks

Er, no, actually, they are taking the rap for beating women.

Comment by Moshe S”

While facilely true, it avoids the issue.

If a Charedi community in EY wants separate seating on buses, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to have it. It may offend some, but there is no reason that community should not be allowed to have its standards in that community. Anyone disagree?

To my mind, the best way of achieving this is to have certain routes designated as “separate seating routes” (or I believe they were once called Mehadrin routes), and have that the official policy of the bus line — whether private or Egged. Then there is no need for violence — that is the official policy. You don’t like it, take another route. You refuse to comply, the bus driver asks you to get off the bus.

Instead, you have Egged putting the private bus companies out of business. Then they run lines in Charedi neighborhoods which are quasi-officially separate, but then Egged refuses to enforce that policy. This makes the community feel that it is being invaded, and there is no way for a communal response to express itself. That is when a few hotheads try to take matters into their own hands and violence results.

I think you missed the point of my post. I suggest you look at the article that I provided in my link. You will get a different perspective on the whole situation.

Er, no, actually, they are taking the rap for beating women.

There is an increasingly strident trend in the Haredi world which results in demonization of “others.” This is evident to anyone whose eyes are open. There are many wonderful things about the Haredi world, but a forgiving spirit toward outsiders is not among them.

Haredi violence is not a brand new phenomenon. It was written about by Haredi leaders themselves, who were very troubled by the phenomenon. There is an article on this by Professor Menachem Friedman: “Haredi Violence in Contemporary Israeli Society”, P. Medding (ed.), Studies in Contemporary Jewry, Vol. 18, 2002, pp. 186-197.

This article discusses the observations of Moshe Sheinfeld in the 1970’s about the emerging trend of violence. Sheinfeld was a Haredi leader, leader in the Agudas Yisroel youth movement–hardly a secular, anti-Haredi, leftist news reporter. I will quote from one of Sheinfeld’s articles, “Ha’alimut–Zemorat Zar Be-Hinnukheinu” (”Violence: A Foreign Branch of our Education”), Niv Ha-Moreh, 41, Sept.-Oct. 1972.

“As much as Torah Judaism (i.e., the Haredi community) has invested supreme efforts in erecting spiritual walls to separate us from the erring secular Jews (”Hilonim”), the winds pass through them and affect our tender youth in particular. Heaven forbid that we should adopt an ostrich like stance and ignore the spreading manifestations of violence that are increasingly leavning their mark on the haredi street. Whowever makes light of these phenomena and draws comfort from the saying, ‘Let the young man now arise an play before us.’ (Shemuel Beit, 2:14), has blinded himself to the gravity of the anticipated consequences and the fould wells from which they spring forth.”

Another quote from the same article by Sheinfeld:
“It comes as no comfort that they wear the cloak of zealotry. If we view the matter clearly, we shall discover that this mantle is deceptive and tainted with hooliganism.”

Only a very insecure person responds with denial and defensiveness to all criticism. A secure, confident person can look at his own flaws, can acknowledge legitimate criticism. Our community cannot improve if we do not face our problems.