Comments on: Spiritual or physical hunger?

By: bag

bag — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:42:25 +0000

I do not agree that the story is primarily about R Meisl’s sense of faith. It is surely that too, but it is an account that we have reason to think factually occured, with little of it being amenable to different interpretation. I don’t think his account can be reduced to a matter of perspective and filters and lenses — if the story is true, as we have reason to think it is, then what occured *was* a demonstration of faith.

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Sun, 23 Sep 2007 02:08:29 +0000

FWIW, in the Machzor Mesoras HaRav that is based upon the teachings of RYBS, RYBS relates a story of an atheist in a concentration camp who was moved by the sight of yeshiva students from Navardock who observed YK despite the deprivations therein. Survivor testimony of acts of Kiddush HaShem should never be discredited or viewed with a jauniced eye and mind unless and until there is proof that the incident never happened, which Rabbanit Farbstein demonstrates can be found in some cases-such as the story of the Cracow BY students who purportedly all committed suicide together. I think that it is relatively easy to reject Dr Greenfield’s critique without venturing into an all too tempting analysis of her political and intellectual views and concluding that the critique is an extension of the same.

By: Kayza

Kayza — Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:09:09 +0000

To Garnel Ironheart:

Your second question is actually answered in the narrative itself - the Germans were not near the bunk house. He was let in by the Kapos (not Germans) who warned him that if the Germans did get near, that would be the end. If you read enough about the way the camps were run, that sounds very normal.

As for the issue of smuggling, you happen to be incorrect. It’s not just that more than one person can testify to the fact of Rabbi Meisel’s A”H blowing the Shofar. There are many stories, told by many different people, about people managing to smuggle in things of much greater size than coins - tefilin and siddurim most commonly.

By: lawrence kaplan

lawrence kaplan — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:39:39 +0000

Why assume an either-or? Perhaps the spiritual and physical coexisted, the purely natural fear and the specifically religious sense of awe. Granted, the portrait painted by Rabbi Meisels may have over-idealized the students a bit. But I prefer his slight over-idealizing to the rather crude reductionism of Dr. Greenfeld. I also agree with Jessica Setbon that we should read this account primarily as a testimony to Rabbi Meisel’s own sense of faith.

By: Garnel Ironheart

Garnel Ironheart — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:48:06 +0000

I’m sorry, I’ve tried to avoid being a nudnik but I must ask a few questions before I can accept this story as is:

1) How did the shofar get into the camp? The Germans either searched or stripped everyone at the front gate. Yes, smuggling did happen but with small items like coins. A shofar of the necessary size would have been nearly impossible to conceal.
2) When the shofar was blown, where were the Germans? Had they heard it they would have come running and shot anyone they found until they got their hands on it and the blower, and then they would have shot him too! Were they asleep?

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:21:22 +0000

Ori asked “how do you know?”

I don’t know anything about Dr. Greenfield conclusively, only what I see from her writing.

By: Rachelle Emanuel

Rachelle Emanuel — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:33:21 +0000

Ora Pomerantz raises a very valid question which is dealt with extensively in Esther Farbstein’s book HIDDEN IN THUNDER in the chapter dealing with Kiddush Hashem. She brings various sources discussing the idea whether Kiddush Hashem requires KAVANNAH. Well worth reading! The last part of the chapter brings the ideas of the Piascezner Rebbe and the Rebbe of Slonim which connect the Akeidah to present day Kiddush Hashem. It seems that it is generally accepted that being killed for the simple reason of being Jewish is recognized as Kiddush Hashem. Of course preparation and intention raises the quality of the Mitzva.

May we all merit to bring Kiddush Hashem into the world through the way we LIVE!!!
Gemar Hatima Tova
Rachelle Emanuel

By: Ori Pomerantz

Ori Pomerantz — Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:18:33 +0000

Yehoshua Mandelcorn, for somebody to willingly give up his or her life can be an act of Kidush Hashem. Is it still Kiddush Hashem if the life is taken away without the option to of saving it?

Bob Miller, if we can’t read minds, past or present, how do you know that Dr. Greenfield isn’t basing her comments on something else, like her experiences with teenagers?

Gmar Chatima Tova, Ori

By: irhakodesh, Sima

irhakodesh, Sima — Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:58:15 +0000

Thank you cross currents for bringing this issue to the forefront. HISTORY, the reporting and interpeting of events can & honestly should be investigated. I can hear Dr. Greenfelds questions, (& am acquainted with her from Rechov hakablan in HN), and I hear well the response of Mrs. Farbstein. Even when interviewing individuals who are part of a historical event, 10 people have 10 or more feelings and judgements on an occurences.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:29:32 +0000

We can’t read minds, past or present, but I believe these Torah Jews would have viewed their personal situations as being an integral part of the Jewish nation’s situation, then and back through history. There, at that time in that place, the element of facing death at the hands of enemies and the element of facing the annual Day of Judgment by G-d, our King, could be viewed as parts of the same global picture. Dr. Greenfield has no concept of these Jews’ perspective.

By: Yehoshua Mandelcorn

Yehoshua Mandelcorn — Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:27:24 +0000

6,000,000 Kedoshim (holy ones).
When a Jew gives up his or her life because he or she is Jewish we consider them holy. For Dr. Tzvia Greenfield to question the religious motivation of Jews about to give up their lives is scary. The fact that she ran for Knesset on the far left Meretz ticket is revealing. This shows how divorced from the Jewish soul are the far left political parties.

By: Jessica Setbon

Jessica Setbon — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:05:14 +0000

Tzvia’s comments on Rabbi Meisels’ description are indeed thought-provoking.

But I would argue:

She raises the problem of “accurate” historical reporting. But history is never objective. Every historian has his/her own version of events based on his/her own personal experience. Our duty as readers is to understand that lens, and to reach a comprehension of the reported historical event that takes that lens into account.

Rabbi Meisels’ interpretation of the inmates cries for shofar and requests for bread through his lens of faith is justified as his own version of the events. It is his OWN faith that makes his writing powerful, NOT his assertion of the faith of others: his insistence on believing that others were holding fast to their faith in that terrible situation.

Therefore as critical readers and historians of the Shoah, we need not address his writing as a betrayal of the others he describes, but rather as his own ani ma’amin.