Many of the great Torah leaders have been saying, for some time now, that Moshiach is very immanent.

In fact, the BABA SALI gave Rav Mordechai Eliyohu a gift–a new frock coat–to wear when Moshiach arrives (Rav Eliyohu is not a young man). The BABA SALI told him that he would still be alive when Moshiach comes.

This principle applies in general, not to one group only. Singling out one group in this connection creates the false impression that crooks are not found elsewhere or maybe are given no kovod elsewhere.

That said, it is clear that, as a people called to a higher standard, we need to be less tolerant of low behavior.

You said that same chilonim consider themselves under attack if they can’t behave like Sodomites. Since my point was that most chilonim have a reason to consider themselves threatened, I assumed you meant to equate chiloni behavior with Sodomite behavior. I’m happy to see that is not the case (had it been my allusion would have been clear), and I apologize for misunderstanding you.

HILLEL: Moshiach will come, before such a civil war comes to pass.

Ori: Ashrey haMa’amin, happy is the believer. Didn’t the zealots have a civil war during the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans? If G-d did not send Mashiach then, how can you be sure He will send Mashiahc now?

He feels no sense of identification with Jews who wear the same “uniform” (yes, I know, there are distinctions that those in the know can see but to the rest of the world, it’s the same army.) And he says that he was even angrier at the charedi rioters than he was at the “gay pride” demonstrators.

That’s interesting, because for many of us here in galut, we read reports in the newspaper of some criminal or other and we are relieved if he’s not Jewish. We feel shame for them because we identify with them. But the most prominent charedi spokesman doesn’t identify with his community’s criminals.

If these thugs are really as much of a detriment to your community as you say, call for their arrest and prosecution. Shun them. Help the authorities. Use your connections with the rabbonim to clean this evildoing from the community.

Does the charedi community wants respect from chilonim? How about getting as upset about corruption inside and outside of the charedi community as about Shabbat and modesty? The corrupt mosdos are a black eye for the many honest people with whom you rightly do identify.

No kovod for crooks might be a place to start.

Moshiach will come, before such a civil war comes to pass.

Ori: My point is that chilonim who want to stay chilonim and to stay in Israel have a reason to consider themselves threatened (if they are young enough, at least). That does not justify police violence against law abiding citizens, of course. It does explain the general antipathy against charedim, though.

If current demographics hold, eventually Israel will have a religious majority (religious zionists and charedim), which will be able to legislate Halacha. Hillel, if your view is the Torah perspective, then when such an opportunity presents itself Halacha will be legislated.

It is distasteful for me to even think it, but at some point during that process I’d expect a civil war. The differences are simply impossible to reconcile.

BTW, Hillel, do you see no difference between people who chop this guests’ legs when they don’t fit the bed (the Midrash on Sodom) and Jews who use electricity on Shabbat?

“Those who have incited Menachem Lipkin’s wrath are a real phenomenon within what is generally thought of as chareidi society—not just a fringe element. But there are many who feel completely unconnected to them, and do not feel that the term chareidi can even serve as an umbrella term for the variety of communities.”

I guess then the onus falls upon those with the community to differentiate themselves. At the same time, as I believe Jonathan does on a regular basis, the overall Chareidi society needs to introspect and make sure that nothing in their ideology is causing these phenomenon.

From Hillel:

“Are you saying that the MO reporter from World Net Daily is paranoid, that he has misreported the anti-Semitism that is rampant in Israel?”

Yes. I love WND and I’ve been reading it for years, but they are certainly given to histrionics of the first degree.

Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:46:21 EST
From: Tobrr111@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gedolim and ball playing
…

A friend of mine who was a counselor in Camp Aguda told me that the Bluzhever Rebbe (who used to visit camp Aguda), used to sit at the sports fields and just watch the kids play ball. When asked about this unusual behavior he told them that the most difficult thing for him during the War and in the camps was seeing the horrible conditions the poor “tyere yidishe kinderlach” had to grow up in (if they had a chance to grow up) and it pained him to see that they did not have a chance to run, laugh and play like normal children. He therefore just sat and “shepped nachas” from seeing Jewish kids being normal and playing in a beautiful outdoor setting and enjoying themselves. (The
Bluzhever was really an unusual human being).

Also, it is well known that R. Yakov Kaminetsky used to walk and go swimming even in his older years and recommended others to do so.

And finally, the Artscroll R. Moshe book has a story where R. Moshe told a class in MTJ that children should play ball but they must make sure to play like yidden — no cursing or fighting.

So if anyone needs reassurance as to the value of ball playing and exercise the actions and words of these 3 giants should reassure anyone who perhaps feels that such activity is a waste of time.

Are you saying that the MO reporter from World Net Daily is paranoid, that he has misreported the anti-Semitism that is rampant in Israel?

Perhaps, you are overlooking something.

You make a good point. SOME chilonim consider themselves under attack, if they can’t behave like Sodomites in G-D’s Holy Land.

However, you can’t compare the levels of violence. Rock throwing by Hareidi children is child’s play–literally–when compared to Government sponsored Police violence against Hareidim and the violence of roaming Chiloni gangs, who invade Hareidi neighborhoods.

As for the demographic threat, It was the Chazon Ish who told MK Lawrence that Torah Jews, who have many children, will eventually outlast and overwhelm Chiloni Jews, who have little or none.

There won’t be any Chilonim left to complain about Torah Judaism in Israel.

Those who have incited Menachem Lipkin’s wrath are a real phenomenon within what is generally thought of as chareidi society — not just a fringe element. But there are many who feel completely unconnected to them, and do not feel that the term chareidi can even serve as an umbrella term for the variety of communities.

I think that the criticism is aimed at charedi philosophy, rather than against individuals. While it is true, as in the analogy, that a soap manufacturer(i.e., Hashem and the Torah) is not at fault if the child doesn’t use it, the charedi “system”(i.e., social policies and organizations) is not the Torah itself, and has fallible, human, elements that may be the subject of a critical evaluation of strengths and weaknesses(see “These and Those” of R. Shimon Schwab for an airing of strengths and weaknesses, on both sides, of even more fundamental aspects of communal life).

An ideal system should not allow unseemingly actions by a vocal minority, and if it allows such individuals to be part of society and hold them hostage, people will question whether changes need to be made to the system, by the top– even gradual changes in the more practical realm that are not a complete overhaul of the system’s fundamentals(if charedi society was cut in stone, and never adopted at all to changing situations, there wouldn’t be a number of positive phenomena which exist currently).

That having been said, critics should not ignore the good of the non-extremist majority who are products of the charedi system, as Rabbi Adlerstein wrote in “Wiki-Orthodoxy and the Undervaluing of Torah”(February 07).

1. Halachic requirements by government law. Chilonim who want to get married in Israel, or get a divorced recognized by Israeli law, have to go through the Rabbanut. Chiloni teenagers who want to go places on Shabbat can’t take a bus unless they live north of Haifa.

2. Money. A lot of things that are privately financed in the US are government financed in Israel. This means that instead of saying: “OK, they do that - but it’s not my business since I’m not paying for it” Israelis (religious and secular) have a right to resent expenditures they consider unjustified.

3. Future demography. It looks like eventually the religious Jews will be the majority. Chilonim are afraid that once that happens, Halacha will be legislated, and they’ll be forced to observe it. From what I understand of Halacha, that fear is not groundless.

I don’t know if there’s any way for the situation in Israel to calm down.

And, BTW: The men who beat me up on the #2 bus were not children; the initial man who approached me and spat in my face was every bit of 35 years old. The other 4 men were well into their 20’s. And the women who yelled at ME for being the “stupid American” were women well within my middle age or older. The people who burnt down the clothing store in Geula were not children. The proprietor had been threatened by adults - not kids. The people in Ramat Beit Shemesh who refuse service at the post office to anyone without a kippa or leg coverings are adults - not kids. And we wonder if this is a “modern” intrusion of influence?? Let’s not misappropriate terms, please. “Modern” is the newest fad of dirty words used as the one-brush-does-all explanation for anything “bad” that happens in the Chareidi world. Not so. At some point, an honest evaluation will point the finger in the right direction: Themselves. One cannot spoon feed one’s children constant heaping spoonfuls of disdain (that’s the mild form - hatred is the worst but not uncommon form) and contempt for everybody and everyone who is not exactly like them and expect CHILDREN to possess the intellectual and emotional sophistication to differentiate between possessing emotions and ACTING on emotions. Combine that with the insular and narrow lifestyle as described above and we have a lethal combination that is going to manifest itself in a variety of violent creative “activities”.

When parents AND rabbinic leaders have enough courage to act in their children’s best interests instead of worrying about what “everybody else thinks”; when all these learners learn that caring for one’s physical health - i.e, sports for children - is not bittul Torah; when learning general studies of interest is not bittul Torah; oh -here’s a chiddush! - making a PARNASSA is NOT bittul Torah - then perhaps we’ll see a reversal of the trend toward violence as the overdoses of testosterone will be channelled in a more healthy way.

Mrs. Katz, there is one very good possibility as to why the whole “separate bus seating” thing has “settled down”: The publicity of this horrendous Chillul Hashem gave the chareidi community - and its silent leaders - a big black eye. It opened up much overdue discussion on not only the issue of Mehadrin buses but extremism - particularly violent extremism - in general and provoked some real soul searching. I heard from several quite reliable sources that it became a platform for Rosh Yeshivas and Rosh Kollels and other community leaders to encourage more tolerance but an intolerance for violence. That, I was told, was what led in part to the massive Tefillah this time against the abomination parade instead of the air polluting carcinogens that sent hundreds of people to the hospital last fall from the street rioting. Obviously, there is more work to do. Not too unlike the Arabs who have created a generation of Sesame street suicide bombers, we have created our own generation of “the violent means justifies the chumras in the end”. It will now take a reeducation of our communities to get back on track and learn basic things like not injuring your fellow Jews.

Ori: Are the consequences the same? If a teenager from a frum family was known to throw rocks on Shabbat, would that teenager suffer the same consequences as one who was known to eat Treifa or drive on Shabbat?

The Jews in RBS B and Mea Shaarim have no idea who Burg is. It’s a red herring. Their insular day to day lives are unfettered by the “antisemitism” you are conjuring up. The Bet Shemesh police use kit gloves when dealing with the riotous behavior that goes on here. People from within there own neighborhood have asked the police to be more aggressive.

Sure there are plenty of secular Jews here who are strongly anti-religous, but like everything else they are the minority extreme. Just as the terrorists within the Chareidi community are a minority extreme. Everyone else falls on a continuum of religious feeling and behavior. The raw numbers of Jews here who observe some basic Jewish rituals are way too high to support your “siege mentality” theory. Also, when Chareidim are given “autonomy”, e.g. their own isolated communities like Kiryat Sefar and Beter there is little or none of this behavior. Also, putting the lie to your siege mentality idea.

If anything the siege goes the other way, as here in Bet Shemesh the violent minority, acting like LA street gangs, try establish their “turf” by terrorizing what is otherwise a diverse and tolerant city.

Hillel, I interface with secular “Tel Aviv” Israelis often and have no issues with them. You seem to be able to find the ones that fit your pre-conceived notions of what they should be.

B”H, That is not the experience of those who actually do this:

http://www.rosh-yehudi.co.il/english.asp?english=true

Maybe if all segments of the frum world, from RZ to Chareidi were more concerned about the societal immage they project, the bridge from secular to religious would be easier for these people to cross (or at least communicate accross)

“A number of this site’s “thought provoking” articles are subliminally, or even explicitly, critical of Charedim as a group. For instance, I have lived in Jerusalem for almost twenty years and haven’t found any meaningful number of “uncontrollable brats” among the Charedi children.”

=
I was the one who mentioned “uncontrollable brats.” I also wrote (see comment #11) “The charedi system actually has worked pretty well in producing large numbers of very committed, very eidel, very knowledgeable Jews. I don’t know what percentage of all charedi kids throw rocks (or drop out altogether) but my impression is that it’s small.” I also wrote that “I have tremendous admiration and respect for the incredible accomplishments of the charedi community.” It was most certainly not my intention to throw in my lot with the charedi-bashers.

====

Hillel wrote: “The hatred many secular, leftist Israelis feel for the religious is so deep I cannot do it justice with words. The secular leftist media routinely demonize the religious.”

He is so very right. The great pity is that so many Orthodox Jews get their impression of charedi society from the distorted funhouse glass of the secular media.

But I have noticed that a huge percentage of Charedim sacrifice their entire lives to Torah. They ignore livelihood, Pesach vacations, cars, and all the so-called pleasures advertised by Mishpacha in order to do one thing alone: to sit and learn.

It’s odd that the more modern world, which cannot lay claim to such a yerusha for so large a number of their brethren, should be so eager to criticize the Charedi world for the wrongdoings of a few.