This is well known to be false, the man was eatign Pig even when he married and “converted”. He couldnt even complete the first line of Shema - does that make him fully observant?
A bunch of lies were told abotu Rav Goren, largely becasue he was a Torah great who also served in the army, and had independent opinions.

2) The comment about mamzerus is independent of R’ Henkin’s opinion. Any possible safek is used to try to be matir a mamzer while the same safek may not be used in general (except maybe aguna). Just look at R’ Moshe’s t’shuvos on mamzerus. The suggestion that just like R’ Goren revoked a gairus so to here is ludicrous because R’ Goren was dealing with a case of mamzerus (not to mention the other points I made above).

Any discussion of conversion must recognize that we live in a time when there is strong political pressure by the Israeli Government to perform mass conversions:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180960627948&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

You’ve basically confirmed my worst fears about the EJF.

The couples who come to EJF are not primarily interested in getting closer to G-D. They need to solve a strategic problem in raising children or compatibility.

They are probably very nice people, but that is not a sufficient reason to accept converts. They cn become riteous gentiles, observing the 7 laws of Noah.

No, you’re uneasiness lies in the fact that you admittedly don’t know much about it. I have my reservations about certain aspects of the EJF but I at least, took the time to attend a conference before commenting on them.

“A convert should be an exceptional person, who has made a life-changing decision. Such a person is rare.”
In studying the Gemara, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, and others, I don’t believe this comment/sentiment is found anywhere. What Halachah is unambiguous about is that the convert must be sincere in his/her intent and the Beis Din must sense that sincerity. It makes no mention of how common or rare it is for that person to present himself before a Beis Din.

“Let’s say Chaim marries Mary and settles in Vermont. How does the EJF come into the picture. Do they solicit Chaim? Does he contact them? I just don’t understand how this process works.”

Key words there.
Believe it or not, many intermarried couples are very uncomfortable with their decisions for a variety of factors. It may be due to pressure exerted on them by their parents, an inherent sense that something is not right about it, a book, an article…They may love their non-Jewish partner but issues arise especially once children show up and questions of how to raise them crop up and then they start to explore Judaism in earnest. These people speak to friends and so on and so forth and many express grave regret for their past decisions or wish they could have known more at the time. Problem is now they’re parents of children, own a house together etc… Simply breaking it up is not the easiest thing in the world for many and constitutes a challenge they’re not ready to face. These people are directed to the EJF that is well-known in many circles and EJF will host them at a conference where they’ll taste authentic Judaism for the first time in their lives. EJF will explain why it’s important for two parents to be Jewish and committed to Torah ideals. EJF will offer the Jewish parent assistance with studying more about Judaism and if the non-Jewish spouse is interested, they’ll help them as well. When the couple eventually decides to move ahead, EJF will put them in touch with a very reputable Beis Din and the Beis Din will take over the process started by EJF. There are no corners cut at all. What they do is give these people a chance they never had or knew even existed.

I know of a few couples helped by the EJF and I am amazed at the incredible steps they’ve taken and more importantly, by their sincerity. I don’t work for EJF and other than attend a conference, I’ve never been in contact with them personally, but I’d hesitate to criticize their work because they’re the only ones doing it and they’re doing it right.

Good points.

What I should have asked–rhetorically–more precisely, was: “Is Judaism nothing MORE than a social service agency?”

I suppose my uneasiness with the EJF is its institutional nature. It seems to make coversion routine, which it should not be.

A convert should be an exceptional person, who has made a life-changing decision. Such a person is rare.

Let’s say Chaim marries Mary and settles in Vermont. How does the EJF come into the picture. Do they solicit Chaim? Does he contact them? I just don’t understand how this process works.

“However, unlike the Jews of Ezra HaSofer’s time (second Bais HaMikDash), who did Teshuva by divorcing their gentile wives, these Jews in the EJF remain married to their gentile wives.”

How accurate is the analogy? One can likely deduce that those who intermarried in the time of Ezra HaSofer were much more knowledgable in halacha at the time of their ill-fitted unions then those who participated in the EJF conference. Those who underwent Geyrus are no longer married to “gentile wives”.

Regarding the sarcastic(?) question of whether Judaism is now a social service agency: Satmar Bikur Cholim, Tomche Shabbos, SBCO, Ohel, to name just a few are probably some of the most organized and dedicated service agencies in the world.

Also, perhaps it benefits us to go slow before making assumptions about the intentions of the couples going through Geyrus before details are examined.

KT

Yes

Once again - the EJF does not do the conversion. They refer them to an appropriate Beis Din [and they only work with seriously reputable Batei Din] which makes the evaluation. They don’t cut any corners along the way. All the EJF does is educate the couple that the choice exists and assist them in preparing for the conversion once they’re interest is piqued.

“Rav Avraham Shapiro and Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook also supported him.”

- are Rabbis Shapiro and Kook major gedolim?

Not to speak of the fact that since almost all the chareidi world was opposed to Rav Goren, proving acceptability of a Torah position by him is quite disingenuous. Can you imagine defending a psak of Rabbi Elyahshiv by saying that Rabbi Slifkin ruled similarly?

“2) We’re always maykil as much as possible to avoid mamzerut – zil kri bay rav hu.” Given Rav Henkin’s shitos on the need for a get, I’m not so sure he’d agree with this.

“3) Rosenblum certainly would be the one defending the attack on R’ Goren” Absolutely correct, and this is what bothers me about the defense. If Rav Goren was wrong then, Rav Attiyah is definitely wrong now.

If this principle applied to bloggers, what would happen to blogs?

It should be noted that in the election for chief rabbi in which Rav Goren replaced Rav Unterman, Rav ZY Kook was a vociferous supporter of Rav Unterman.

I could almost feel bad for Rosenblum who has to defend these types of actions. But actually I really don’t…

If the EJF is dealing with Jews who truly want to do Teshuva, that might be a different story.

However, unlike the Jews of Ezra HaSofer’s time (second Bais HaMikDash), who did Teshuva by divorcing their gentile wives, these Jews in the EJF remain married to their gentile wives. Even if we assume that these wives are prepared to “go along” with conversion to make their husbands happy, is this an acceptable basis for accepting a convert?

Rav Avraham Shapiro and Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook also supported him.

Ori: The people who actually come to EJF are those who want to do Tshuva. Most intermarried Jews couldn’t care less about it. Do you think one should help somebody who wants to do Tshuva, or reject such a person for previous transgressions?

Hillel,

This comment could not be further off the mark. These people most certainly didn’t thumb their noses at Judaism. They’d never been exposed to it and had no basis for not intermarrying. If you think they made a conscious decision to reject Judaism you’re making a terrible mistake.

Speak to them yourself or to someone active in Kiruv and you’ll see that they believe that they’ve done nothing wrong. It’s only later in the game that SOME of them become aware of the gravity of the situation and they deserve tremendous kudos for taking steps toward Judaism at the point in their life. We owe it to them to assist them in their return the same way we help out all other Jews.

JR wrote,
“The organization also promotes a universally accepted standard for conversion. It has already sponsored numerous conferences for rabbinical court judges in the United States and Israel, and one is scheduled in the near future for Europe.”

While it’s true that the org. sponsors these conferences and seeks to educate the rabbis in some of the finer points of the issue, it does not really promote a universal standard for conversion. This is what I discovered when I attended a conference of theirs. These words were bandied around a lot there but Rabbi Tropper then spoke and explained that they don’t intend to do that but rather to make rabbis more effective and knowledgeable and hope that they maintain proper standards.