“Your orthodox friends, don’t accept that I’m Jewish,” he said.

“No, they just don’t accept that you are a rabbi.”

It’s much easier for them to tell their followers that we reject them, rather than to admit that it is their credentials we reject.

I understand the distinction Mrs. Katz is trying to make, and on a purely theoretical level, and observational level, it makes sense. However, when it is translated into the human realm, where concepts of belief and personhood are inextricably intermingled, this type of distinction will not be accepted by the person whose beliefs are under attack. And, we, the Orthodox, have reacted in similar fashion to those who would try to seperate us from our religious beliefs.

That’s true, so far as it goes. But what’s missing is that the Talmud only made the comparison about women. It could have made it about men, but it did not. Just because you can interpret a statement to remove its negative qualities does not mean that the statement does not exist (sort of an ein mikra yotze midei peshuto). It was Toby’s choice to create the implied comparison that I commented on, and she is not alone in making these kinds of comparisons. I’m merely pointing out that making those choices carries a cost in the broader Jewish community.

You misread the article and the quotes. The whole point of the article was that a woman felt it necessary to explicitly describe the difference between a disorder and those individuals suffering from that disorder. This was then juxtaposed to someone who insisted that anyone stating that the heterodox streams of Judaism are making a mistake, must be evil, vicious, and hate the members of those streams. It definitely does not say that the members of thos heterodox streams suffer from a mental disorder.

Rejwvenator claimed in his 6:57 note that too many of even the best of Orthodox outreachers tend to convey, as Mrs. Katz all too sharply highlighted, that “non-Orthodox people who do sense Hashem in their lives, and who do feel close to Him, that their feelings are illusory…(and possibly)a disorder that is dangerous to (their) spiritual well-being.”

Let’s admit it. Genuine respect for another is an extremely difficult tightrope for anyone of “Orthodox” thinking to walk. By definition of our zealous fidelity to a particualr mesores as the only bonafide way of knowing G-d’s will, we do convey “foul” to any competing beliefs. And as far as fellow Yidden go, that means utter rejection of their deepest sense of being.

How did Mrs. Katz’s helige father, zts”l, once put it to me? “One may speak ABOUT Judaism in the most beautiful way possible, but in the end it will never help a fellow Yid and MAY EVEN HANDICAP him! This is beause every Jew ultimately knows that Torah’s all about building your own, personal relationsip with G-d, and all that talk ABOUT just won’t do it. Rather the secret to true kiruv is in the Passuk ‘Kosie Reviyah,’ my cup runs over. Only when we genuinely share Torah as an overflow from our own personal relationship with H’ can we ignite the spark in the other to also find his.”

Ori: See above for what I find problematic. Disagreement is fine, but telling someone that the religion that they base their lives upon is a disorder similar to anorexia is disrespectful. There’s a lot of respect lost between “I disagree with your beliefs” and “Your beliefs are wrong, but it’s not your fault, because you suffer from a disorder, you know, like anorexia. That’s right, your religion, complete with rabbi, community, synagogue and assorted rituals is the product of a disorder that is dangerous to your spiritual well-being in the same way that anorexia is dangerous to your physical well-being.” And that’s to say nothing about the insensitivity towards those with eating disroders and their loved ones.

Using a sickness/disorder example makes the logical point, but it is inappropriate to use that as an example. It creates an unfortunate association between non-Orthodox philosophies and sickness/disorders.

Any dialog with the non-Orthodox must be approached with the sensitivity and respect that might be used if you were talking to your neighbor.

It was a problem in 17th century Amsterdam, when they excommunicated Baruch Spinoza. It may become a problem in Israel one day, if there is a Dati/Charedi majority. It is not a problem in the US, where there is freedom of religion and we are allowed to lead our own lives as we see fit.

When somebody who disagrees with you says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being disrespectful. They are simply pointing out the facts of the disagreement. There is no condescention in their rejection of Heterodoxy - they just truly and really believe it’s not G-d’s will.

Crude comparison; nevertheless, the message is accurate.

I live Torah in a different way than most Orthodox Jews do, but not at all entirely different, and at least as consciously and self-awaredly as most O’s.

The belief that *your* way is the *right* way for you to live Torah is fine… but I have a *right* way for me as well. We need to accept our differences and celebrate our mutual sincerity and joy in Torah-and-Hashem-centered living.

Elie

Absolutely - as read by who though? I think that was rejewvenator’s point.

PS. I know the answer. I’m only trying to point out that some orthodox people can see that he has a genuine issue.

Could be, could well be that the gains are greater than the loss and the right and the good is to continue to speak in such manner. But don’t deprive them of the right to judge how they are spoken about and to! Could there be anything more condescending than that?

Every Jew’s neshama yearns to be close to Hashem, and to the extent that any Orthodox Jew, in writing, teaching, or just being a friend, can help to lower the barriers that keep other Jews from achieving that closeness, to that extent we are helping and not hurting our fellow Jews. I am very sorry that that sounds condescending to you — very very sorry.

Hashem told us how we can achieve closeness to Him –his love letter to the Jewish people is the Torah.

Comment by rejewvenator — May 8, 2007 @ 8:19 am ‘

Sigh.