I did - they were the polls quoted by DMZ.

DMZ: Of course I agree that Israeli society is less violent than Palestinian society. And I dearly hope that is because we have assimilated the ethics of our religion properly - and not just because compared to the Palestinians we have power. Violence is often the last refuge of the desparate - as it was for Amir who had lost hope in the victory of his point of view via democracy.

And it’s for that reason that I would rather look at us than them.

It says ‘wipe out the memory - do not forget’. So should we not forget the fact that we’ve been told to wipe out the memory, or should we not forget the memory we’ve been told to wipe out? The latter makes less sense to me.

Unfortunately, for example there is no doubt that many in the Jewish community of Hebron have a lot of sympathy for Goldstein. There was a memorial put up for him in the central square of Kiryat Arba.
Goldstein’s actions can’t be justified at all. Unfortunately, even a blogger who I respect a lot has trouble condemning him unequivocally.

I am aware of R’ Lichtenstein’s letters to a couple of roshei yeshiva who eulogized him after the incident. However, as R’ Lichtenstein himself points out, the roshei yeshiva don’t actually approve of or eulogize what Goldstein did - only that the parts of his life before he carried out that terrible, evil act were worth remembering. I’m still not of the opinion he should have gotten a eulogy, but let’s not transform this into “he had to tell them not to praise the massacre of Palestinians” - because that’s not what happened, from what I can tell. Much of the rationalization happened because of the fact that instead of being arrested and put on trial, he was murdered on the spot (after being disarmed, so I’ve read) and then his body was horribly mutilated.

From my own life experience , and as a Christian who is now in a biblical recovery program for emotional child abuse - it lasted until my parents died - I can say righteous anger is justified and it is an emotion that G-d gave us. In Scripture, I read about G-d’s anger which is always righteous and the outrage of His Prophets because some activity was against G-d’s express word and His given command to love him and others. Yet, I am reminded of Solomon’s words “there is a time to hate and a time to LOVE”. I see this as a warning as well.

Friday, I learned about the “circle of protection” (this is not witchcraft BTW). For this discussion, try to visualize 4 circles. The small inner circle is spiritual and it represents our need to love and to be loved - we were created in love to love G-d and man- . The next circle is emotional and represents pain and hurt - because the love we were created to give and receive is not perfect because we are not perfect. The next circle is mental and represents fear and anxiety - because we ask are we loved or not. The last circle is physical and represents our protection (I guess this is self love) but is seen in anger, defense and withdrawal - because we have been hurt through love denied in a deep and evil way. Please note the “-” comments are mine and I could be in error.

For me, my anger was directed inward (I bought into the lie of not being loved) and I denied what happened to me. G-d in his mercy, decided that it was time to recover from my hurts, habits and hang-ups. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined myself participating in this program; In ignorance and arrogance, I thought it was for addicts or such . Interestingly, however, I was put into a very unique situation where I could look at all their literature in a very safe non-threatning way. My eyes were open and in shock and amazement and fear I identified a behavior I had. I signed up for the program not even fully knowing why I was there. In my heart, I knew G-d’s hand was all over this and I was obedient, somewhat - ” OK, I am here but I really don’t know why you brought me here ?” It was intimidating (who will see me here); it was painful (I have to talk about things I pushed back for years that i said were not a problem); it was physical (I often felt sick when I went) and it was emotional (I found my self expressing anger about what happened to me and while driving and I missed 2 turns but didn’t cut anyone off) . Please know, I am so very early in this process I shouldn’t even be writing about it. But I am so excited that I can’t not stop sharing the joy of seeing how G-d has been peeling away the layers of the onion of hurt, pain and denial with His own gentle hands and walking me through. I cannot wait to see what He is going to do next and I give Him all praise and glory. I know this suffering will not be wasted.

New things I have learned is forgiveness has been cheapened! Imagine that. True forgiveness is valid for ONLY 2 conditions. Hurts that need forgiveness are acts of betrayal and disloyalty that are both deep (cut to our inner circle) and moral (against G-ds commands and code).

The cheapness of forgiveness has been to forgive someone for frustrations or annoyances - (someone cut me off in traffic, etc.). Turning the other cheek is for annoyances NOT deep and moral hurt ! To put cheek turning in Jewish terms, I see it as a fence according to Psalm 4:4 “In your anger, do not sin”. Cheek turning is something we can all easily do by choice in a moment if we are willing.

True forgiveness is a miracle. It is a process and it takes time - sometimes it takes a long time , And it is painful ! Jeremiah said “you can’t heal a wound by saying it is not there” - I did this for decades. The power to forgive comes from being forgiven (by G-d). And the core to recovery is forgiveness. Forgiveness is NOT: forgetting, excusing, or smoothing things over. (It is also NOT perverting civil justice.) I am beginning to see that it is when the forgiver (me) performs spiritual surgery on her own memory. When you forgive someone, you slice away the wrong from the person who did it and you disengage that person from his hurtful act. You recreate him/her and in your memory he/she is no longer seen as powerful and evil but weak and in need ( of G-d’s love and healing and redemption -my thoughts). In such a very short time, I can see the seeds of this happening ! - the pictures don’t hurt so much. I still have a journey to go on.

Now, I was really curious to see where forgiveness was demonstrated in the Hebrew Bible. G-d in His mercy forgives us but where do we forgive others ? What really caught my eye, my heart and my emotions was the story of Joseph. I read Chapters 37-50 in Genesis, through tears of pain, repentance, joy, excitement and hope. And said, YES this is the pain of betrayal, disloyalty and deep moral hurt that I have experienced. It is also the true forgiveness I have been learning about in my recovery. Forgiveness is a miracle and it is powerful because G-d is using this for an even greater and far lasting good - spiritual fruit doesn’t have a shelf life (my thoughts). You cannot forgive if you have not been hurt deeply and morally. “Understanding where we have been victimized provides us with rich opportunities to practice forgiveness” - Dr. Larry Crabb. And I don’t think you can forgive until you have repented. ” Understanding how we have chosen to respond to what has happened to us defines where we need to repent” - Dr. Crabb. This is what happens when the warning in Psalm 4 is ignored - this I did in defense that helped me survive. But the revelation - that comes later- that some of this defensive behavior is a sin calls for repentance before G-d. It was a long process that got me where I am and it will be a however long process that brings healing and recovery. My own heart is deceitful in denials and refusing to see my need for G-d’s healing. I am remembering David in Psalm 51 where G-d used the Prophet to open David’s eyes to his sin. For me, He brought me into a room where materials were available and he brought me -in curiosity- to read the materials.

I recognize I am where G-d wants me to be and I know in my heart, He will see me through. He has already done so many things in a few short months not even years.

The story of Joseph is such a beautiful story of G-d’s mercy and forgiveness within his sovereignty and power. And it is a story of evil: betrayal,murder planned, hate, lust, cruelty . Yet, in looking back and seeing G-d’s hand in all things, Joseph said “what you did for evil, G-d used for good”.

We are broken people whose deeds are filthy rags and we live in a broken world……but, G-d still sees, hears and comes down to heal. His healing is far-reaching, powerful, unanticipated, revealing what is hidden, myth shattering and it is soooo good.

Can you see, a little bit, that forgiveness is very Jewish all the way back to Genesis ?

I must have missed the part where she said we should forget what they did - because she never said that. Indeed, you might have noticed that she _did_ call them bloody terrorists and murderers by means of comparison. She was more making the point, if I understand correctly, that two people (and here I disagree - it’s been more than two) make for a couple psychopaths - hundreds and thousands mean a society of violence and terror. Israeli society clearly does not have as serious a problem when they’re not spawning terrorists and killers by the dozen.

I don’t think she’s precisely wrong (how can she be? it’s opinion!), either. She said it in an offensive fashion, certainly, but you really do have to wonder as to how bad the problem in Israeli society is when you’ve got to reach back ten years or more to find a significant Jewish terrorist. Although, let us not forget the idiot who gunned down some Palestinians during the Gaza evacuations - he deserves the title, too.

Again: not excusing the kind of inane harassment that some of the more radical settlers indulge in, and even their attempts at terrorism (so far ineffectual, thank G-d). But “OMG, we’ve got to fix on our society before we can criticize someone else’s!” rings hollow to me in this particular case.

Please accept my sympathies on your losses. I suppose the real miracle of the Messiah is how he’ll clear this mess up in the Middle East with justice and peace. I certainly have no idea how to!

Try the comment fields on the news articles at http://www.israelnationalnews.com/

While it is impossible to determine the prevalence of those kinds of attitudes from self-selected internet postings, some of the stuff there is frightening — and it is from more than a few people.

Sources? Or are you just slandering the community without any hard evidence at all?

Comment by DMZ — March 3, 2007

See the following examples from a quick web search:

Here are some of the things that were said about Goldstein in the wake of the Hebron Massacre:

In 1994, Rabbi Moshe Levinger a prominent leader of the Orthodox Israeli community was quoted thus, in the Israeli newspaper, Yediot Ahronot:

“I am sorry for the 29 Palestinians murdered by Goldstein in the same way that I would be sorry for the killing of 29 flies.”

In a letter to Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein, dated the 28th of April, 1994, Dov Lior, the Rabbi at the settlement of Kiryat Arba where Goldstein lived, said this:

“Since Goldstein did what he did in God’s own name, he is to be regarded as a righteous man… A Jew who is killed because he is a Jew must certainly be called … a holy martyr … without investigating their previous conduct.”

Rabbi Israel Ariel, who read a eulogy at Goldstein’s funeral, said this on that day:

“The holy martyr, Baruch Goldstein, is from now on our intercessor in heaven. Goldstein did not act as an individual, he heard the cry of the land of Israel, which is being stolen from us day after day by the Muslims. He acted to relieve that cry of the land.”

In the 28th of February, 1994, edition of The New York Times, Rabbi Yaacov Perin, who conducted the services at Goldstein’s funeral, was quoted thus:
“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”

Later in the same year, the Florida chapter of the Jewish Defence League of America released this statement:

“We feel that Goldstein took a preventative measure against yet another Arab attack. We understand his motivation, his grief and his actions. We are not ashamed to say that Goldstein was a charter member of the Jewish Defense League. We quote without comment the rabbi who conducted the services at Goldstein’s funeral:
‘A million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail’.”

In 1994, Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg produced an extended essay on the Goldberg massacre.

In his book, which sold one thousand copies within two days of its release, he stated that:
“The crowning glory of his act is the sanctification of God… God looks more fondly on Jewish blood and therefore it is redder and its life has priority

I wish I could give you an exact cite for Rav Lichtenstein’s comments-but Tradition magazine printed his remarks and exchange with other Rabbonim after the Goldstein massacre. Quickly tonight I couldn’t find it in my bookshelf-but certainly anyone with the CD-Rom forTradition or excellent recall or has the hard copies from the time period in order can find what I am referring to in very little time.

Sources? Or are you just slandering the community without any hard evidence at all?

Also, I agree with you in what you say. It’s just that I don’t want a war. Call me an optimist but I think it’s avoidable and that we would be better off without it. Just a thought.

Toby. I found your comment offensive I’m afraid. Two reasons: firstly, what Goldstein and Amir did was murder. Your argument bolis down to the fact that it’s ok to forget what they did because of what Arabs do. You are precisely wrong. If we don’t want to be like them then WE mustn’t forget.

Second reason. I have lost 2 members of my close family to Palestinian terrorism. I have been to the funerals, the shivas and the stone settings. And I have reached my position as a result of going through the grief, questionning God, rejecting God, feeling that that isn’t any sort of solution, thinking, praying, studying and finding an equilibrium.

And, forgive me, I don’t need anyone categorising that as “the lefties trot out” - ok? Just because I disagree with you doesn’t make my view subject to that sort of cheap shot. People can honestly disagree, and I try to do so. Read what I said about this being unpopular in my original post. Everyone has a back story - this would be a better (and far more halachically observant) debate if people concentrated on the arguments instead of the insults.

Comment by DMZ — March 1, 2007 @ 5:03 pm

DMZ: I’ll offer a trade (seriously). I’ll research the sources if you comment on the substance of my idea. OK?

Every time there’s a new killing or bombing somewhere in the world perpetrated by yet another member of the glorious Islamic faith, the lefties trot out these same two names.

Let’s see, a million bloody terrorists and murderers on the Arab side.
Two on the Israeli side.

Yup, about even.

Comment by Toby Katz — March 2, 2007

Sadly there are much more Orthodox Jews who agree with Goldstein and Kahane. To express their viewpoint is certainly tolerated. See Rav A Lichtenstein’s speeches letter etc after the Goldstein massacre-complaining about the acceptance of Goldstein and that Rabbonim were maspid him.

Before there can be absolution, there must first be a solution“. The problem with Vicar Nicholson’s attitude is that the perpetrator of the crime has not done teshuva in any way and asked for forgiveness. Her inability to forgive someone for the crime, when she knows that if the suicide bomber were returned to life, he would choose to do it again, is actually correct and proper. It is the attitude that a murderer must be forgiven, even (or especially) when he shows no remorse that is wrong.

I’m clueless as to who “Loberstein” actually is, as he (I don’t even know for sure it’s “he”) probably is about me. Maybe others somehow know of “Loberstein”, but I don’t.

Unless we provide something like a home address to the public, we non-celebrities are still pretty anonymous even if we give our names.

The value, or lack of value, in blog comments is only in what they contain, unless the commenter is an authority on the subject matter, so that the comment carries extra weight.

Nor are the opinion polls quoted by DMZ. Firstly, they are at least 5 years old; secondly they also reveal that 85% of Palestinians support a mutual cessation of violence; thirdly, that last statistic begs the meaning of the words “mutual” and “violence” - which in turn begs the meaning of the word “support” when DMZ relies on a 5 year-old finding that Palestinians support violence.

Arguing about statistics and terminology is a substitute for arguing about issues. For example I “support” the building of a Temple on Har Habayit. But not tomorrow. I “support” the bulldozing of a house used for terrorist activity - but not if within that house there are a preponderance of pre-teen children who would otherwise have nowhere to call home.

So, if you ask a Palestinian “do you support or regard as proper Islamic behaviour the taking of innocent life through suicide bombings?” the vast majority will answer “no”. If, after the well-publicised bulldozing of a house, you ask Palestinians “do you support the recent suicide bombing as a response to violence inflicted against Palestinians by Israelis” you will get a different answer. The second question, of course, transfers the emphasis from the suicidal nature of the attack to the response element of it.

Once we rely on the BBC to justify how we think as Jews and supporters of Israel, believe me as a Brit, we’re in trouble.

Nor am I suggesting that Jews show anything like the same level of support for our villains. My point is rather different and is amplified by DMZ’s response. We are too keen to look at other peoples’ responses and behaviour and not keen enough to examine our own.

Moreover, when we adopt a Torah based analysis of other people - whether halacha l’maaseh or academically (and I’m happy to accept DMZ’s point that it is the latter) - we automatically give ourselves credit for having the Torah and being able to analyse based upon it, and automatically DIScredit those the subject of that analysis. Which is why I believe such analyses are uncomfortable and unproductive. It’s Purim - a time to think in terms of our own redemption and HKBH’s part in it: AND a time to think more of why we deserved it then, than of the wickedness of our political opponents now. Let’s leave Amalek for the antisemites who hate us because of WHAT we are, not WHERE we are.

Every time there’s a new killing or bombing somewhere in the world perpetrated by yet another member of the glorious Islamic faith, the lefties trot out these same two names.

Let’s see, a million bloody terrorists and murderers on the Arab side.
Two on the Israeli side.

Yup, about even.

Actually, it’s a statistically valid claim. There have been polls by various groups stating that > 60% of the Palestinian populace supports suicide bombings in past years - and strongly. The fact that not everyone engages in violence doesn’t mean they don’t support it, and, dare I say, glorify it.

Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p9epressrelease.html

In the future, try sourcing your counter-arguments before making them. The question of why these results are true is a more interesting question, that I’m not going to try to answer.

As for Jews who glorify violence - did you notice how the JDL went nowhere, and is actively villified in most Jewish communities? There are some Jews using violence when they ought not to, and others supporting it when they shouldn’t. But the vast majority of the Orthodox community, as far as I know, does NOT see Amir (who didn’t even kill any Palestinians) or Goldstein as heroes. Kahane’s party is outlawed in Israel.

Like I said, there are problems, and they are not insignificant. Ignoring those is dishonest. But at the same time, purposely inflating them to artificially derive some sort of moral equivalence is equally dishonest.

Besides, when you get right down to it, R’ Gottlieb specifically did NOT label the Palestinians as “real Amalekim” that you have some sort of mitzvah to kill. He was making a point about current Palestinian culture being similar to a sort of Amalekite one, and, from what I can see, it’s one that’s hard to dispute that factually. If the Palestinians change, and they very well may, than the comparison goes away. Think in terms of academic comparison, rather than halacha l’maaseh.