No. You should defer addressing it until it’s clear there is an issue to be addressed.

- We should defer addressing Mrs. Shear’s issue until Zev is satisfied …

True, I’m not entirely satisfied. On the one hand, Mr. Meir did corroborate her account. On the other hand, the same article quotes the driver of the bus, who claims it did not occur. It’s possible he’s just practicing some prudent CYA, but what about the woman on the bus who called Mr. Rosenblum and contradicted Mrs. Shear’s story? Anyway, it’s still unclear, which is why I’m not satisfied.

Mrs. Shear has been b’cheskas kashrus throughout her ordeal. You asked for corroborating evidence. She produced it. Two individuals independently corroborated her story. You still don’t seem to be satisfied. If you can’t bring new facts to the table, just let it go.

SM, the above glorifications and praises were a touch too early: “I am not prepared to simply accept the story on her say-so.” Comment by Zev — February 21, 2007 @ 5:36 pm

Huh? I don’t get the connection.

- echoes my sentiments about the Gush Katif episode last year; if that indeed took place

Really? What exactly did I say that you disagree with?

“my sympathies are entirely with Mrs Shear.”

Mine too, assuming the event actually occurred. However, unlike you, I am not prepared to simply accept the story on her say-so.

- I’d like to call out for commendation SM’s act of publicly recognizing the action of Zev

BUT, confirming in public what you previously doubted is a complete kiddush Hashem and you have set a real example.

- I am sure it does put a cost or overhead on the system, which should at least be acknowledged / appreciated by charedim who want it. I think that a display of hakoras hatov would satisfy those who resent the extra cost

“the charedi world is free to adopt any new stringency it wants on its own buses.”

- Thing is the buses aren;t theirs, unless they actually develop a private bus company

I am not sure what you have in mind, but you are welcome to e-mail me at borhowitzREMOVESPAM@yahoo.com(delete the capital lertters).

Miriam Shear,

If you are examining the topic of separate seating on Egged buses in the context of other modesty issues in charedi society, I hope that you will be fair to both sides of this issue. Even advocacy journalists acknowledge the need to be fair, despite advocating a particular point of view.

There are sensitivities and concerns on both sides, and I am interested in reading an essay which will examine the issue fully. Mrs. Schmidt in her CC post and Op Ed articles makes a good point that the progressive promiscuity of secular society leads to additional insularity in the charedi world; it is like the Rambam writes about going to the other extreme. It is also understandable that teenagers would be distracted when women dress up during the wedding season on buses, even though the women in question are all frum and dressed modestly. Nevertheless, separate seating in reaction to the latter concern is a new chumrah.

On the non-charedi side, some see the bus issue in terms of other new customs, such as separate lines in a Benei Brak bank(except during rush hour), or hechsherim on clothing shops. There is a concern that there needs to be a point of balance. Previously even in Israel, and currently in charedi neighborhoods in Brooklyn, there were never such stringencies. What is to stop the charedi world from moving in a continued direction this way?

The NPR article mentioned that “senior Haredi rabbis in Jerusalem led a public burning of see-through stockings and other allegedly risqué dress”. I am curious if the “senior Haredi rabbis”, which I assume are limited to the Eidah Hacharedis community, are mainstream even within that community. Where is the source in the Torah for burning clothes in public gatherings?

As long as the separate seating are confined to clearly marked Egged lines, the move to the right in the charedi world shouldn’t bother anyone from outside. As Mrs. Schmidt wrote, “the Orthodox need to do much introspection to minimize the offense to those who prefer mixed seating”. Once such sensitivity is displayed, the charedi world is free to adopt any new stringency it wants on its own buses. For those in the charedi world who are unhappy with all of these new stringencies, I hope that there will always be other communities in the charedi world where people can choose to live without adopting the different practices in question.

Why then has his name and testimony not been reported in the media?

What frustrates and exasperates people like myself is that, not only is their no “give” on the part of some of them, but the violence and intimidation that is heaped on others when their views are not adhered to. And sometimes, it is the innocent people in their own community who are made to suffer for their actions. An example of this was the tire, garbage can, car burnings that went on for weeks in most chareidi neighborhoods that sent hundreds of people - particularly babies, small children and the elderly - to the emergency rooms. The pleas of health professionals who were measuring air quality warning that the carcinogen particles in the air was at a dangerously high level fell on deaf ears. I was one of those people who was bedridden for 3 days with a respiratory infection from this toxicity. At some point, some of us decide “enough!” If it means digging my heels in on something as “minor” as a seat on a public bus, then that is one small way to say to the thugs “you will not push us around anymore and you will not do so with impunity”. Again, it’s the minor pushbacks that sometimes keep the thugs from imposing total anarchy.

There are more issues here that I will be addressing from a broader view in an article that will be released soon.

yes! I would also throw in hakoras hatov. reb baruch, I feel so strongly about this that would actively work (with you?) on an effort to influience charedi leadership toward such an event. it would have to start with the left or middle of the charedi world with the hope of spreading rightward. you in?

Nobody is winning here, except maybe the zealots. As for a toeles. The media publicity is not directed at these criminals. If they are not going to be affected by gedolim they certainly won’t be affected by a secular newspaper. The target audience is the more reasonable heads among the chareidim who may possibly be jarred out of their silence if the chilul Hashem that people who look, and in many cases think, just like them is magnified in this way.

Here in Beit Shemesh, if anything, the police have been accused of being too benevolent. It’s sometimes reminiscent of the Crown Heights riots when Mayor Dinkins just let the rioters “vent”. However, in actuality from information we have received from the police liaison the police are doing some decent covert work and are making arrests. It’s sometimes those arrests that have triggered some of the rioting. I’ve had e-mail correspondence with a couple of people in RBS who actually have expressed that they wish the police would act more like the ones in Jerusalem!

I also wonder how the religious Zionist community has gone about distancing itself from its own extremists that have tarnished its image in the press. Have they been successful? In the case of the charedi community, it is up to the non-Edah Hacharedis leadership to get the Edah leadership to institute harsh measures against zealots such as cherem, since I think most zealots are affiliated with that community. At the same time, both communities need to be able to demonstrate to the press and the public, that it’s image is on it’s agenda in education for both children and adults.

If Menachem Lipkin(comment # 107) is in fact correct that “the Chareidi Rabbis have explicitly stated that this problem is beyond their control” and that “ the Rabbinic leadership has abdicated it’s responsibility to deal with this issue”, then that is a recipe for disaster. No community is immune from bad PR, but shaming the charedi community into change by involving the media comes with a high price in terms of new chilul Hashem.

I’ve read that MK Avraham Ravitz is trying to make a dent in charedi poverty( $500 million is the total sum needed), by meeting with different groups abroad. I don’t know if the community can concentrate on the problem of it’s image at the same time that the humanitarian need is so acute, and while it is also constantly emphasizing insularity. In any event, I would sincerely like to see us reach a point when the American Agudah is able to publicly address the issue with brutual honesty, and in the meanwhile, I salute the lone voices who do discuss this, even gingerly.

You won. I listened to Rav Hershel Schachter shiur on Mesira. It is exactly as you wrote. From a pragmatic point of view, I still don’t see the toeles of working with Ha’aretz. It has no influence on the fellows that give your neighborhood a hard time. My question is whether you can ask for police protection. In the US this probably would not be an issue. I wonder whether the Israeli police’s indiscriminate eagerness to smash Charedishe heads, way beyond the call of duty, accounts for the reluctance of the Rabbis in question to resort to their help.

Mrs. Shear: Your kol v’chomer is not a kol v’chomer because a bus doesn’t have the din of a shul. The only makom kavua in the bus is that of the driver. In Europe, some seats are designated to the elderly and handicapped. No matter how many times you sat on your favorite seat, I can come tomorrow and take it if it is not occupied. Once you occupied it, it is all yours for as long as you wish. I would like to respectfully point out that the desires of the kahal need to be taken into account. For example, regardless of the nusach I usually daven, if I go to a shul and want to daven at the amud, I am expected to daven the nusach of the shul. We need to show more flexibility and be more forthcoming to one another, even when we are within our rights. Your error, however, is miniscule compared to the public that witnessed your being lynched without protesting, as well as those of us who continued the lynching on line.