- i would also have like to believe this. have you inspected the situatoin first hand in the past couple of years?

I need to clarify. I did not mean just the frum community. I think the problem is endemic in western culture.

I think we are are searching for a “solution” to something not within our power to fix. For the vast majority, nothing terrible is happening; it is symptom of naturala yeridas hadoros caused by a variety of reasons. It may actually be arrogance for us to think we can put today’s middle class of bochrim on the same level as yesterday’s upper class.

As regards study in Israel, I wonder if student life can be better integrated with local Orthodox community life there, so that the more at-risk students do not live in their own dysfunctional, separate youth society.

It is the height of religious arrogance for a group to claim that it can build walls high enough to keep ou the yetser hara. He is an agile and crafty fellow who can leap over the highest and broadest obstacles.

In fact,I mispsoke. The Yetser Hara is within us all. Bechira (free wiil)demands that he as equal access to man as the forces of good do.

- Just to be clear. My point was not to detract from virtues of Bais (or other yeshivos) as yeshivos. Rather it was an observation that the overall experience of learning in Israel at these middle of the road (and even right side of the road) charedi places is NOT what it used to be.

I doubt very much that the yeshivos are at fault. There are many factors involved, including: students’ increased capacity to spend, the fact that coming to learn in Israel is less a factor of student decision and more a matter of default, an increased expectation that bochurim be enrolled in yeshiva even if learning is not their bent, the general trend among our kids of our generation toward alcohol, drugs, etc. (and who knows why that is).

I have no reason to think that the yeshivos are not doing their utmost to deal with the hand they are dealt. But that doesn’t mean we should fool ourselves and think that for every bochur, even one who could shteig in e.g. Philly, Long Beach or Passaic, it is davka beter for him to go to Bais, ToMo, or Merkas Hatorah where there is much social pressure to hang out.

Maybe if we let teenagers make more mistakes when they’re still at home, and give them tasks that are harder and more relevant, they will be ready for independant life earlier.

- I didn’t davka mean to pick on Bais. It is representative of a category of yeshivos officially lodged in the charedi camp (as opposed to Shaalvim or KBY) with a critical mass of “good” (not problem) bochurim occupied with interests outside of learning. I think you have to admit that Bais is not Charedi in the same way that Ponovezh, Lakewood, and Mir are Charedi. What I mean by pseudo is that they while they officially dress with hats and jackets, do not say the tefilah for the medinah, etc, the student body is known for engaging in activities that are less than wholesome, more than are students from Mir, Kol Torah, and Toras Moshe. As far as the staff, I don’t doubt that they are fully charedi.

- not sure how to explain the vast discrepancy

“not sending to Israel in favor of immediate enrollment in a secular college invites trouble”

– consider the follwing oxymoron: it is always wrong to make generalizations. obviously a year of hanging out on Ben Yehudah is better than a year of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. all I am saying is that these days, the good yeshiva bochur is in danger of being cheated out of his eretz yisrole’dikeh ruchnius.

“This is not a new issue”

yes it is. learning in Israel 25 years ago was NOT like this.

First: Bais Yisroel can in no way be described as “pseudo-chareidi.” The hashkafa of virtually all the Rebbeim, and especially that conveyed during Vaadim and Shmuessen from the Mashgiach, is straight Chareidi, no pseudo about it. While the behavior of some of the younger bachurim may be far from ideal, this is no way takes away from the fact that Bais is a Chareidi Place, if you’ll pardon the expression. College of any sort is strongly discouraged, and staying in learning for the long term is heavily promoted. Of course, when giving individual eitzas various compromises may be suggested, but the Yeshiva as a whole has clear Chareidi Hashkafos.

Second: I strongly question how JO feels competent to make the assesment after a mere 6 days in Israel that Bais Yisroel and similiar Yeshivos have the most pronounced problems. Granted, there is a certain percentage of the bachurim, particularly first year boys, who are not serious at all. This percentage varies from year to year. Many of these go on to become more serious and stay for several more years, or make other life-changing decisions, eg. going to Landers or other American Yeshiva/college programs (not YU – the number of Bais guys who have continued to YU is negligible) instead of a secular college. Some don’t get (take?) anything out of the Yeshiva, and return home unchanged. I think that barely any, and in some years none, return home at a “lower” level than they left.

Next time JO is in Yerushalayim he should make the trip up to Neve Yaakov and actually see Bais Yisroel before dismissing it as a problematic Yeshiva.

Third: JO does not mention what he means by “problems”, but to be clear, I am referring to the standard kind of hanging out on Ben Yehuda (officially forbidden by the Yeshiva, btw), similiar to the sort of things these guys were no doubt doing back at home, and not the kind of criminal/drug stories which are associated with the “Yeshivos” for teens on the fringe.

Fourth: I do not believe that a “metamei es hatehorim syndrome,” as JO calls it, exists at Bais Yisroel. Any bachur who comes with the intention of learning can easily find a peer group, both among the older bachurim and those in the first year, who are there to learn and have no interest in hanging around in town. They quickly see the difference between those who are serious and those who are not, and gravitate towards the former group.

Fifth: Acharon Acharon Chaviv, Rimon is not Badatz. Last time I was there, it was Rabbanut Yerushalayim Mehadrin, and although it may have changed its hechsher due to the politics surrounding the Rabbanut’s hechsher, I highly doubt that it has a Badatz (Eida Chareidis) hechsher.

Again, I am not saying that Bais Yisroel has no problems. However, I do think it is a far better Yeshiva than JO implied.

The real issue is the problem with schools for “normal” children. Obviously a wide variety of students go there. Some are seriously observant and will grow from a year in Israel. Some are not but will be inspired and grow. This is the group Jonathan Rosenblum is commenting on in this article. The third group is the problem, those students who have “freedom” for the first time in their life and abuse it getting into alchohol, drugs and sex.

First many of these normal students really were problem students who didn’t get caught (or whose problem was ignored) before they went to Israel. Very few students become problems for the first time in Israel when they were tzadikim in the US. The problem is also not limited to Israel. My wife tells me of a friend of hers from Bais Yaakov, who was the child of an intermarriage. She had multiple times when setup on dates with students from Lakewood who would try and sleep with her because she had a non Jewish last name. But they wouldn’t marry her because they were too religious.

Another friend of mine learned at Talmudic University in Miami Beach. He would tell me of the massive drunkedness on Purim, and the yeshva students who appeared to know the South Beach gay lifestyle a little too well when they mocked it.

This is not a new issue, nor is it a year in Israel issue. It’s about our communities need to better deal with those of our youth who have problems and how we should deal with them.

Taking out an ad in the New York Times labeling a Yeshiva a cult would be an example of aligning one’s self with anti-Torah forces. Nevertheless, negative feelings amongst parents, while thankfully not always the case, is perfectly understandable. One only needs to place him or herself in the parents’ place to realize how a change in level of observance might be perceived as a threat, or a rejection of one’s values. A similar reaction might occur amongst parents of Balei Teshuvah, or on the other extreme, when the son of yeshiva-educated parents chooses a kollel lifestyle, instead of their parent’s way of life.

I remember seeing a schmooz from R. Pam zt’l that the kollel issue is in effect a “healthy problem”; as far as the issue of “flip-flops”, there is a shiur on Torah Web by R. Yudin which discusses that issue in a very sensitive manner, and similarly starts off by saying that such a “problem” is a healthy one. Nevertheless, one needs to see the issue from the parent’s perspective as well.

As far as the causes, it is true that a child of the “Ortho-pracs” observance would naturally be attracted to observance which is passionate, rather than one which includes compromise(the “Otho-pracs” category avoids the less polar “centrist” category). Those who analyze the phenomenon such as Dr. Samuel Heilman, have focused on, amongst other factors, the reluctance of Modern Orthodox graduates to be educators in their own schools. Nevertheless, the fact that another way of life is perceived as more passionate or more authentic, is understandably a reason why a child might feel happier and more fulfilled living such a lifestyle. If a parent unecessarily makes an issue out of every small thing, they lessen the chance of their child eventually finding the right balance.

The word “Satan” is a synonym for “yetzer hara” — not for a particular person or people!

- Out of control is exactly how I termed it to my nephews there as well. Working off of memories of my youth, I was completely stunned by what I saw (and I was told that there is much worse than what I saw). The current situation is out of control, and it is a shame that what was such a beautiful (super)natural resource is now so compromised.

Kol tov

Joshua