I for one an truly grateful to the Jewish people who were given the priviledge of preserving G-d’s very own Words which they did faithfully and now gentiles can read it and see the glory,power and grace of G-d. Additionally, years ago, I was delivered 10 weeks early before NICU’s were even a glimmer in someone’s thoughts by a Jewish doctor who also was responsible for my care. He gave my parents a 50/50 shot that I would survive. Other than a few allergies, I have survived well and in the Lord. And so I praise G-d who brought a kind, wise, discerning Jewish doctor into my life when I needed him most and who even became my family practice doctor even into adulthood. I know this sounds a bit like one-stop shopping - it was ! - but G-d used this wonderful Jewish man for my good. He was a wonderful caring and very wise doctor who used his G-d given wisdom to help many gentiles in his practice and he displayed an even greater sense of humor. I still remember those laughs long after he retired.

In Bible Study yesterday, one of our study questions was “What is your attitude toward the Jewish people”? The answers were so heart warming and came one after another without pause that the discussion leader had to rein us in so that we could cover the other lesson questions in the time alloted. One particular touching testimony was from an elderly black grand mother who said: “growing up in the Carolinas people of my complexion were not hired and couldn’t find jobs. I can’t say enough about the Jewish people because it was one Jewish man who hired me and showered me kindness,care and concern for years when many others in my community chose not to”.

Thank you all and G-d bless you all !

Eliot,

I am pretty certain that the OU, as well, forced a New York restaurant to stop a Millenium party for Jews, and that this was reported in the news.

“Could you kindly define these terms?”

Jacob,

As Bob said, there is a concept of social justice and concern with humanity within Judaism, but it can be divorced from the Torah.

In general, and unrelated to the question of linking kashrus supervision to social issues or how to work with or allay the concerns of the interested parties in the Agriprocssers issue, there are extremes on both ends. The more liberal one goes in the various Jewish streams, the more emphasis is given on the social justice aspect of the Torah, because it is something which people can relate to. However, it can be divorced from belief in the divinity of the Torah.

The opposite extreme is complete insularity. Within Orthodoxy, for example, there are those such as Rav Hirch who would argue that isolation is not an ideal Jewish concept, and is merely a response to anti-Semitism. Other, more insular, communities might feel that Orthodoxy’s limited resources preclude an over-involvement in the world at large. Instead, for the most part, we need to be concerned about our own community, and improve the world, indirectly, in that way.

This issue was discussed previously on the Darfur thread, and some felt that Jews should not be at the forefront of this issue, if the task could be accomplished by others. Nevertheless, an article in the Jewish Observer stated that one must be concerned and pained about the situation, and also that there was benefit in having some Torah Jews attend rallies, even if the community did not do this on a whole.

Can’t help but wonder if the resulting vacuum allows those preaching ersatz Torah find a way in and capture the imagination of those less familiar with the genuine article.

That said, real Judaism does have its own social justice program. We ought to find practical, halachically sound ways to encourage proper Jewish behavior by Jewish manufacturers, processors, and suppliers of essential goods we buy (and suppliers of services, too). Whatever we do along these lines also has to be legal in the country we live in.

But before we send the OU or any other organization down this road, we need to arrive at a consensus about our specific goals. Today, that consensus and broad sense of community may be lacking.

“and fit in well with a humanistic-based Judaism, that uses the concept of tikkun olam as advancing social causes.”

Could you kindly define these terms?

Modesty, yes. No “Sylvester”, not necessarily. That story was specifically linked to the Jerusalem Rabbinate (not the BaDa”Tz, my bad). And, as the latter link shows, the market did demand some serious contortions on the part of the Rabbanut despite their stated “social engineering” policy.

Ori: No. The Shochet’s actions directly impact Kashrut in a way that makes it necessary for him (could it be her?) to be somebody a Beit Din would trust as a witness.

However, that is a special case. Would you have a problem with eating the meat of a chicken raised by thieves and drug dealers? I guess they could surgically implant the chicken with pieces of bacon, but that is far fetched.

yoelb: I’ve done hashgacha, and I can tell you that it really helps if you can trust the people who work in a business. If someone wears the uniform what laws can he violate before you shouldn’t trust him?

Ori: If they are criminals who violate the law of the land, you can report them to the police. If they are Jews who violate Halacha, while claiming to be Orthodox, you know they are dishonest. If they are chiloni Jews, things are more complicated (a Chiloni Jew can be honest in his or her business dealings while eating bacon cheeseburgers on Yom Kippur).

However, if a gentile or a Chiloni Jew obeys the laws of the land, but not the Halachic Choshen Mishpat, that is not a sign of dishonesty - merely of different standards. It does not mean that they cannot be trusted to keep Kashrut commitment in their business.

This is kind of an interesting example, because I was under the impression that for shechita, there WERE actual halachos about the shochet needing to keep Shabbos and such, not just peripheral associations. Have I been mislead?

As for trust, there are well-defined laws in halacha for establishing that - see the laws of witnesses, for example. As far as I can tell, you are actually proposing to go BEYOND what halacha requires, and into the realm of Western ethics and sensibilities. While there’s something good to be said for those, mixing halacha into it is a bad idea, and will only lead to more whining about kashrus agencies being more stringent than they have to be.

Would it be a halachic issue if they would be, for a hypothetical instance, thieves or drug dealers?

Do we say that oh, he’s just a felon, a beit din hasn’t ruled against him?

I’ve done hashgacha, and I can tell you that it really helps if you can trust the people who work in a business. If someone wears the uniform what laws can he violate before you shouldn’t trust him?

You recall incorrectly. That story was the BaDa”Tz of Jerusalem refusing certification of hotel caterers hosting “Sylvester” parties.

“The OU and the Conservative groups should work with Agriprocessors to investigate and make any necessary changes which Agriprocessors’ critics allege are necessary.”

It is interesting to note that this entire “Tzeded Hekhsher” project began as a result of the reporting in the Forward concerning AP and working conditions for plant personnel. The article in question brings numerous assertions of management malfeasance via-a-vis worker treatment but brings no evidence to support them; opting instead for an anonymous source or, in laymans terms, hearsay.

The Conservative movement has seized upon this faulty reporting, hardening by means of repetition into “fact” requiring immediate action. It is small wonder that the O-U is resisting this cynical attempt to be railroaded into supporting this project; they recognize this is an attempt by the Conservative movement to burnish their halachic credentials. These credentials are in serious need of rehabilitation now in the wake of the movement’s complete abandonment of principle on the gay issue. What better issue to exploit for such rehabilitation than a “social justice” claim that any modern thinking individual can support.

If the O-U eventually decides to address the “Tzedek Hekhsher” issue, and I think they should, they will do so on their own terms only and not be influenced by exploitative pressures from heterodox movements.

Hashgachos are not just on the kashrus of food. The OU has threatened to remove a hashgacha from a restaurant which would allow Jews to celebrate a Millennium party, if I correctly recall. I know of a catering hall (without an hashgacha) that will allow parties with mixed dancing, saying that the kashrus is only on the food; most hashgachas, however, will not allow this.

Yet, as Rabbi Genack points out, there are cases where the issues are amorphous, and the strength of kashrus may be weakened by turning a hashgacha into a certification of social issues. I would draw the line at a situation where the owner was warned and didn’t make improvements for gross violations. The OU and the Conservative groups should work with Agriprocessors to investigate and make any necessary changes which Agriprocessors’ critics allege are necessary.

Please refrain from speaking for “us”, especially when you don’t. Personally, I think if the certifying agency explains the situation honestly, and the company wants a hashgacha anyways, they should be given one. After all, it’s not like it’s untrue - the product is indeed kosher.

As for lifnei ever (”placing a stumbling block before the blind” - eg, misleading someone) and theft, you’ve got to be joking. First, as to lifnei ever, the OU has ALWAYS been clear that certain things don’t require a hechsher - including on their website. Ignorance of halacha is not the OU’s problem to solve. Second, there’s no theft in a transaction where both parties fully understand the deal being made. Maybe you think it’s un-necessary, but clearly these companies feel otherwise. In any event, the cost of certification on these unnecessary hechsherim is less than a prutah per item anyways, so you’d have no right to complain as an end-user even if in some warped halachic sense you were stolen from (you weren’t, by the way).

There is a lot of misinformation being spread about the true costs of kashrus certification. Seriously, when’s the last time something got certification (even a necessary one!) and it actually resulted in a significant price increase? Some folks are pushing the impression that I’d be spending half as much as I do on food if the evil kashrus industry was totally reformed, but I’ve never seen any actual proof of what that certification costs my wallet.

Additionally, why limit this only to food? It seems to me that anything a Jew buys should be produced in accordance with halacha vis-a-vis worker treatment, TzLB”Ch, Tikkun Olam, and the like: the houses we live in, furniture we own, cars we drive, etc.

There is good reason to assert that these factors should render a product ossur/mutar. I do not see any reason to be so selective in their application.

That’s nice, but their reasons are not our reasons. IMO the OU and other major agencies should refuse to certify products that do not require certification for reasons of lifnei ever (as Jews who see a hechsher on sugar come to think it is required) and to make a kiddush hashem by showing that Jews not only take kashrut seriously, but take the laws of theft seriously and won’t sell an unecessary service.

Ori: Why is food different from anything else? If we are forbidden to eat food from companies that violate business Halacha, shouldn’t we also be forbidden to use other products from such companies? 150 years ago, when cotton was mostly raised by slaves, was it forbidden to wear it? Do we need a Hechsher when we buy a car, for example?

I think the mishnaic expression is “Ein laDavar Sof” - there is no end to this. While it is admirable to want to refuse to do business with companies that violate workers’ rights, that is not the same thing as Kashrut (neither is the FDA - the FDA is about health standards).

Maybe there is a business opportunity for an organization that gave a seal of approval regarding workers’ rights, like the BBB does for customer relations. However, that is separate from Kashrut.

Yes, that’s basically what I’m saying - because Choshen Mishpat has nothing to do with Yoreh Deah, and the certifying agency isn’t an expert (presumably) in Choshen Mishpat, either. If you can cite me a source that bad labor practices can make food non-kosher, I would happily be willing to revise my opinion accordingly, if necessary.

Or: keeping choshen mishpat doesn’t rely on me keeping yoreh deah, or vica versa.

Is there actually any source for doing this? I’ve seen a lot of allegations here that “traife business practices make for traife food”, yet not actually seen anyone quote a real source for it. I’ve not seen any sourcing for when halacha is stricter than local labor laws, either, I may add. If someone’s got a specific complaint, bring it up, but let’s stick away from vague allegations.

I’d also point out that all the “worker protection” mechanisms people are clamoring for would only raise the cost of certified products, and probably lead to some of them not getting certified at all. Then, everyone would start complaining that the high cost of kosher food keeping people from keeping kosher.

If you want better labor laws, go vote for them. Making the kashrus organization the decider of such things when they have absolutely no expertise in the field is silly. I like the C movement’s idea of certifying places for their labor practices (something of a mehadrin idea, maybe), but I think making it a pre-req for kashrus certification isn’t a good idea.

(However, I would certainly say that certifying agencies need to make sure that workers are being treated in accordance with the law of the land, at the very least.)