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	<title>Comments on: The Changing Face of Kiruv</title>
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	<description>A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Rabbi-m</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-77097</link>
		<dc:creator>Rabbi-m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-77097</guid>
		<description>Just to set the record straight: the &quot;Jews for Sale&quot; ad was placed by Hillel Kook zl (aka Peter Bergson). Playwright  Ben Hecht wrote the copy as he did many of Bergson&#039;s ads. (see http://theater2.nytimes.com/mem/theater/treview.html?pagewanted=print&amp;_r=1&amp;res=990CE0D9123AF932A25755C0A963958260&amp;oref=slogin)  
 
 The point of the ad was to spur all Americans, Jewish and non-Jewish, to get active, lobby Congress and so on. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/transcript/transcript1.html.
 
 I wonder what Kook would have thought of the Save Darfur campaign.
 
Many objected to the ad in that it seemed that if you clipped the coupon and mailed in a check, you could buy a Jew freedom.  Kook was not the one behind the plan; he wanted people to know about it so that pressure could be brought on the American Government to act.

It was not Eichmann who made the offer.  It was Romanian pro-Nazi collaborators trying to hedge their bets now that it seemed Germany was losing.  That was also Kook&#039;s point.  It was a &quot;Race Against Death&quot; in that the non-German collaborators might be scared into stopping their colloboration.

Finally, though Stephen Wise did a lot of things that stopped good efforts at saving Jews, it was Breckinridge Long, a serious anti-Semite in the State Department who killed it:
&quot; Various other initiatives to save Europe&#039;s Jews met with obstruction from Long. For example, in April 1943, Gerhart Riegner, the World Jewish Congress representative in Geneva, suggested a plan to save thousands of French and Rumanian Jews. Even after the proposal had the support of the president, Long and his subordinates delayed acting on it for eight months.&quot; from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX90.html
 
Wyman&#039;s books are must-reads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to set the record straight: the &#8220;Jews for Sale&#8221; ad was placed by Hillel Kook zl (aka Peter Bergson). Playwright  Ben Hecht wrote the copy as he did many of Bergson&#8217;s ads. (see <a href="http://theater2.nytimes.com/mem/theater/treview.html?pagewanted=print&amp;_r=1&amp;res=990CE0D9123AF932A25755C0A963958260&amp;oref=slogin)" rel="nofollow">http://theater2.nytimes.com/mem/theater/treview.html?pagewanted=print&amp;_r=1&amp;res=990CE0D9123AF932A25755C0A963958260&amp;oref=slogin)</a>  </p>
<p> The point of the ad was to spur all Americans, Jewish and non-Jewish, to get active, lobby Congress and so on. <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/transcript/transcript1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/transcript/transcript1.html</a>.</p>
<p> I wonder what Kook would have thought of the Save Darfur campaign.</p>
<p>Many objected to the ad in that it seemed that if you clipped the coupon and mailed in a check, you could buy a Jew freedom.  Kook was not the one behind the plan; he wanted people to know about it so that pressure could be brought on the American Government to act.</p>
<p>It was not Eichmann who made the offer.  It was Romanian pro-Nazi collaborators trying to hedge their bets now that it seemed Germany was losing.  That was also Kook&#8217;s point.  It was a &#8220;Race Against Death&#8221; in that the non-German collaborators might be scared into stopping their colloboration.</p>
<p>Finally, though Stephen Wise did a lot of things that stopped good efforts at saving Jews, it was Breckinridge Long, a serious anti-Semite in the State Department who killed it:<br />
&#8221; Various other initiatives to save Europe&#8217;s Jews met with obstruction from Long. For example, in April 1943, Gerhart Riegner, the World Jewish Congress representative in Geneva, suggested a plan to save thousands of French and Rumanian Jews. Even after the proposal had the support of the president, Long and his subordinates delayed acting on it for eight months.&#8221; from <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX90.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX90.html</a></p>
<p>Wyman&#8217;s books are must-reads.</p>
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		<title>By: mycroft</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76988</link>
		<dc:creator>mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 04:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76988</guid>
		<description>the Jewish Day School movement started by Rabbi Shraga Mendelovitz and continued by Dr. Joseph Kaminetsky and then Rabbi Fishman and many others is probabaly the most powerful Kiruv movement of this century.

Comment by sam 


There were Day Schools before Rav Mendelowitz and Dr. Kaminetsky-not to take away from the efforts and success that they did to expand them-but for starters there were at an early stage-MTA AKA Yeshiva University HS around 1916, The Talmudical Academy in Baltimore around 1919 and others</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the Jewish Day School movement started by Rabbi Shraga Mendelovitz and continued by Dr. Joseph Kaminetsky and then Rabbi Fishman and many others is probabaly the most powerful Kiruv movement of this century.</p>
<p>Comment by sam </p>
<p>There were Day Schools before Rav Mendelowitz and Dr. Kaminetsky-not to take away from the efforts and success that they did to expand them-but for starters there were at an early stage-MTA AKA Yeshiva University HS around 1916, The Talmudical Academy in Baltimore around 1919 and others</p>
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		<title>By: Nachum Lamm</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76968</link>
		<dc:creator>Nachum Lamm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76968</guid>
		<description>You know, I have to add a note to that. I&#039;m amazed that a Chabad Shaliach doesn&#039;t know the difference between AJOP and NJOP when this layman does. Furthermore, I&#039;m surprised he doesn&#039;t realize that NJOP&#039;s programs are done everywhere, including non-Orthodox synagogues. Kol HaKavod to NJOP and those congregations; I&#039;m also not comparing Chabad, but it sort of dilutes a claim that &quot;quite a few Chabad houses participate.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I have to add a note to that. I&#8217;m amazed that a Chabad Shaliach doesn&#8217;t know the difference between AJOP and NJOP when this layman does. Furthermore, I&#8217;m surprised he doesn&#8217;t realize that NJOP&#8217;s programs are done everywhere, including non-Orthodox synagogues. Kol HaKavod to NJOP and those congregations; I&#8217;m also not comparing Chabad, but it sort of dilutes a claim that &#8220;quite a few Chabad houses participate.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nachum Lamm</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76954</link>
		<dc:creator>Nachum Lamm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76954</guid>
		<description>Moishe, that&#039;s NJOP, not AJOP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moishe, that&#8217;s NJOP, not AJOP.</p>
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		<title>By: Moishe</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76936</link>
		<dc:creator>Moishe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 06:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76936</guid>
		<description>Back then, there were Chabad attendees and one member of the Board. There were as many from that camp as you would expect at a Rav Shach Appreciation Day ceremony.

As a Chabad Shliach, I&#039;d like to comment.

1) I wasn&#039;t invited, and  AJOP has my Address and Fax, I  constantly get their info on Shabbat accross America, and Hebrew Classes (BTW, I understand quite a few Chabad houses participate.

2) Judging from  many responses on this forum, I&#039;m not sure I and my fellow colleagues would be welcome in any case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back then, there were Chabad attendees and one member of the Board. There were as many from that camp as you would expect at a Rav Shach Appreciation Day ceremony.</p>
<p>As a Chabad Shliach, I&#8217;d like to comment.</p>
<p>1) I wasn&#8217;t invited, and  AJOP has my Address and Fax, I  constantly get their info on Shabbat accross America, and Hebrew Classes (BTW, I understand quite a few Chabad houses participate.</p>
<p>2) Judging from  many responses on this forum, I&#8217;m not sure I and my fellow colleagues would be welcome in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76931</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76931</guid>
		<description>the Jewish Day School movement started by Rabbi Shraga Mendelovitz and continued by Dr. Joseph Kaminetsky and then Rabbi Fishman and many others is probabaly the most powerful Kiruv movement of this century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the Jewish Day School movement started by Rabbi Shraga Mendelovitz and continued by Dr. Joseph Kaminetsky and then Rabbi Fishman and many others is probabaly the most powerful Kiruv movement of this century.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76884</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76884</guid>
		<description>No person or group in modern times &quot;invented&quot; kiruv.

In the distant past, starting with the Baal Shem Tov ZY&quot;A, early Chassidism was primarily focused on kiruv.  (This is one example)

The most one can say for moderns---and this still deserves a lot of credit!---is that they revived or reinvigorated kiruv after an extended lull.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No person or group in modern times &#8220;invented&#8221; kiruv.</p>
<p>In the distant past, starting with the Baal Shem Tov ZY&#8221;A, early Chassidism was primarily focused on kiruv.  (This is one example)</p>
<p>The most one can say for moderns&#8212;and this still deserves a lot of credit!&#8212;is that they revived or reinvigorated kiruv after an extended lull.</p>
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		<title>By: mycroft</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76872</link>
		<dc:creator>mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76872</guid>
		<description>Kiruv is important-it wasn&#039;t invented by the RMMS Chabad or even NCSY-the nuts and bolts job of every Western Hemisphere Rav-50,60 years ago etc was Kiruv. YU had a strong kiruv movement before NCSY-one can see Victor Geller&#039;s book for allusions why they unfortunately got out of the business.
But unfortunately, even more important in terms of numbers should be kiruv ofthose inside the system to ensure that they don&#039;t go &quot;off the Derech&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiruv is important-it wasn&#8217;t invented by the RMMS Chabad or even NCSY-the nuts and bolts job of every Western Hemisphere Rav-50,60 years ago etc was Kiruv. YU had a strong kiruv movement before NCSY-one can see Victor Geller&#8217;s book for allusions why they unfortunately got out of the business.<br />
But unfortunately, even more important in terms of numbers should be kiruv ofthose inside the system to ensure that they don&#8217;t go &#8220;off the Derech&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Closeted</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76857</link>
		<dc:creator>Closeted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76857</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I certainly didn’t mean to slight Lubavitch’s record or example in the world of kiruv – especially after bemoaning the fact that they have chosen to absent themselves from the convention.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

For what it is worth, Chabad Shluchim gather for a 5-day international convention in NYC each year in the fall. About 2,000 to 2,500 Shluchim attend--and that is just the men! A similar event, though perhaps a shade smaller, is held in the winter for the Shluchos.

Cross-Currents visitors might find it informative to visit www.kinus.com, or click http://www.kinus.com/media/pdf/103/rHYu1035748.pdf to download the schedule (warning, big file).

&lt;i&gt;I gave the credit to NCSY because it is a single organization, and I look at the Chabad effort as that of hundreds of different and independent organizations, united by their affiliation to a particular brand of chassidus.&lt;/i&gt;

In what area is NCSY more of a single organization than Chabad? Much of the funding for the lcoal NCSY chapters is local, which is similar to Chabad-Lubavitch. I would think that Chabad Shluchim are united by far more than a &quot;brand&quot; of Chassidus. They are bound together by central bodies, such as the Merkos L&#039;inyonei Chinuch in New York, by regional bodies of local head-Shluchim, and by a shared partnership in reaching out to Klal Yisroel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I certainly didn’t mean to slight Lubavitch’s record or example in the world of kiruv – especially after bemoaning the fact that they have chosen to absent themselves from the convention.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>For what it is worth, Chabad Shluchim gather for a 5-day international convention in NYC each year in the fall. About 2,000 to 2,500 Shluchim attend&#8211;and that is just the men! A similar event, though perhaps a shade smaller, is held in the winter for the Shluchos.</p>
<p>Cross-Currents visitors might find it informative to visit <a href="http://www.kinus.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.kinus.com</a>, or click <a href="http://www.kinus.com/media/pdf/103/rHYu1035748.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.kinus.com/media/pdf/103/rHYu1035748.pdf</a> to download the schedule (warning, big file).</p>
<p><i>I gave the credit to NCSY because it is a single organization, and I look at the Chabad effort as that of hundreds of different and independent organizations, united by their affiliation to a particular brand of chassidus.</i></p>
<p>In what area is NCSY more of a single organization than Chabad? Much of the funding for the lcoal NCSY chapters is local, which is similar to Chabad-Lubavitch. I would think that Chabad Shluchim are united by far more than a &#8220;brand&#8221; of Chassidus. They are bound together by central bodies, such as the Merkos L&#8217;inyonei Chinuch in New York, by regional bodies of local head-Shluchim, and by a shared partnership in reaching out to Klal Yisroel.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Katz</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76856</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76856</guid>
		<description>There is room for everyone in kiruv, kollels, Chabad, YU, NCSY, you name it.  We are still so few in proportion to the need.  I worry that we are not managing to reach enough Jews fast enough.  Already the majority of American Jews are intermarried, and a large percentage of their kids do not self-identify as Jews (and indeed, many in fact are not Jews, according to halacha). 

What do we have, one more generation, maybe two more, before there are no more non-Orthodox Jews to be mekarev?  They are slipping away and disappearing before our eyes, ten or twenty or more for every one we succeed in bringing back.  

Already, kiruv today requires conversions of non-Jewish spouses and kids in many cases, as well as delicate handling of non-Jewish brothers-in-law and sisters-in-law and nieces and nephews.  For how much longer will kiruv even be possible when Jews disapear into the general population entirely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is room for everyone in kiruv, kollels, Chabad, YU, NCSY, you name it.  We are still so few in proportion to the need.  I worry that we are not managing to reach enough Jews fast enough.  Already the majority of American Jews are intermarried, and a large percentage of their kids do not self-identify as Jews (and indeed, many in fact are not Jews, according to halacha). </p>
<p>What do we have, one more generation, maybe two more, before there are no more non-Orthodox Jews to be mekarev?  They are slipping away and disappearing before our eyes, ten or twenty or more for every one we succeed in bringing back.  </p>
<p>Already, kiruv today requires conversions of non-Jewish spouses and kids in many cases, as well as delicate handling of non-Jewish brothers-in-law and sisters-in-law and nieces and nephews.  For how much longer will kiruv even be possible when Jews disapear into the general population entirely?</p>
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		<title>By: Rivka W.</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76854</link>
		<dc:creator>Rivka W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76854</guid>
		<description>While my experience with my PIT is far shorter than CY&#039;s (only a few months), I agree with his analysis. I am finding the experience of learning with her absolutely amazing -- both in terms of her learning and growth, and mine!

While I am sure there are some bad experiences (I&#039;d be surprised if there weren&#039;t any, given the vagaries of human nature), my impression is that they are in the considerable minority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While my experience with my PIT is far shorter than CY&#8217;s (only a few months), I agree with his analysis. I am finding the experience of learning with her absolutely amazing &#8212; both in terms of her learning and growth, and mine!</p>
<p>While I am sure there are some bad experiences (I&#8217;d be surprised if there weren&#8217;t any, given the vagaries of human nature), my impression is that they are in the considerable minority.</p>
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		<title>By: Chilled Yungerman</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76848</link>
		<dc:creator>Chilled Yungerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76848</guid>
		<description>Tzvi although I don&#039;t wonder about the veracity of your claim, I find it hard to believe that your situation is typical. I have a PIT for more than five years and the experience has been one of growth for him and myself. I know a few others that have similar experiences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tzvi although I don&#8217;t wonder about the veracity of your claim, I find it hard to believe that your situation is typical. I have a PIT for more than five years and the experience has been one of growth for him and myself. I know a few others that have similar experiences.</p>
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		<title>By: Tzvi</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76833</link>
		<dc:creator>Tzvi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76833</guid>
		<description>I wonder about the veracity of the claim that PIT has a backlog of 500 people who want and need to learn Torah.  I am an FFB and I volunteered my time to learn with such a needy Jew.  Well, it turns out that he didn&#039;t even know who I was or what I wanted.  After he returned from an &#039;inspiring&#039; Birthright trip, he and all his mates were coerced into giving up their phone numbers to a PIT rep.  A few weeks later I tried calling him and had to chase him down, and the chavrusashaft was over before you could say modeh ani.  I wish the program was smaller and more committed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder about the veracity of the claim that PIT has a backlog of 500 people who want and need to learn Torah.  I am an FFB and I volunteered my time to learn with such a needy Jew.  Well, it turns out that he didn&#8217;t even know who I was or what I wanted.  After he returned from an &#8216;inspiring&#8217; Birthright trip, he and all his mates were coerced into giving up their phone numbers to a PIT rep.  A few weeks later I tried calling him and had to chase him down, and the chavrusashaft was over before you could say modeh ani.  I wish the program was smaller and more committed.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch Horowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76832</link>
		<dc:creator>Baruch Horowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76832</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think it behooves those laboring in the vineyards of the
L-rd to push for a programme of kiruv krovim as well. We FFBs need to see ourselves as Baalei T’shuvah as well.&quot;

That&#039;s a good point. Parents of both BT&#039;S and FFB&#039;s need to be able to transmit Yiddishkeit in a meaningful way. Even if the internet takanos are put into place in many cities throughout America as far as home usage, one needs to inoculate, as opposed to completely insulate one’s self and family from values and views antithetical towards Judaism. 

At  first glance, I would say that the broader blogosphere is a fertile ground for Kiruv Kerovim. There is much that can be accomplished by someone who knows what they are doing, and there should therefore  be plenty of  &quot;kiruv-kerovim professionals&quot; on hand on the free-wheeling blogs. On the other hand,  one may say that the way to win and influence people is not through debate, but rather by getting people  to experience Judaism. Furthermore, the self-perpetuating nature of blogs at large may not lend itself towards any type of spiritual  end-goal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think it behooves those laboring in the vineyards of the<br />
L-rd to push for a programme of kiruv krovim as well. We FFBs need to see ourselves as Baalei T’shuvah as well.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good point. Parents of both BT&#8217;S and FFB&#8217;s need to be able to transmit Yiddishkeit in a meaningful way. Even if the internet takanos are put into place in many cities throughout America as far as home usage, one needs to inoculate, as opposed to completely insulate one’s self and family from values and views antithetical towards Judaism. </p>
<p>At  first glance, I would say that the broader blogosphere is a fertile ground for Kiruv Kerovim. There is much that can be accomplished by someone who knows what they are doing, and there should therefore  be plenty of  &#8220;kiruv-kerovim professionals&#8221; on hand on the free-wheeling blogs. On the other hand,  one may say that the way to win and influence people is not through debate, but rather by getting people  to experience Judaism. Furthermore, the self-perpetuating nature of blogs at large may not lend itself towards any type of spiritual  end-goal.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76828</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76828</guid>
		<description>As an NCSY alumnus , perhaps, I am biased. Yet, for teens, NCSY has always been about what R Harry Maryles described in his first post on this thread. That IMO, is the key to its continued success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an NCSY alumnus , perhaps, I am biased. Yet, for teens, NCSY has always been about what R Harry Maryles described in his first post on this thread. That IMO, is the key to its continued success.</p>
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		<title>By: Yitzchok Adlerstein</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76819</link>
		<dc:creator>Yitzchok Adlerstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76819</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But is NCSY really the most successful? I believe that when it comes to sheer numbers, it would be Lubavitch, wouldn’t it?&lt;/em&gt;

I certainly didn&#039;t mean to slight Lubavitch&#039;s record or example in the world of kiruv - especially after bemoaning the fact that they have chosen to absent themselves from the convention.  I gave the credit to NCSY because it is a single organization, and I look at the Chabad effort as that of hundreds of different and independent organizations, united by their affiliation to a particular brand of chassidus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But is NCSY really the most successful? I believe that when it comes to sheer numbers, it would be Lubavitch, wouldn’t it?</em></p>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to slight Lubavitch&#8217;s record or example in the world of kiruv &#8211; especially after bemoaning the fact that they have chosen to absent themselves from the convention.  I gave the credit to NCSY because it is a single organization, and I look at the Chabad effort as that of hundreds of different and independent organizations, united by their affiliation to a particular brand of chassidus.</p>
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		<title>By: Yitzchok Adlerstein</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76818</link>
		<dc:creator>Yitzchok Adlerstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76818</guid>
		<description>OK, folks, let up!  The New York thing is a joke! No offense intended, although my own experience has been that out-of-towners are often more outwardly personable.  The difference quite likely is as a few of you say- a product of population density, etc.  Or for you humorless Litvaks, the NY thing is a cheftza, not a gavra (or giveres).

Apologies to anyone who thought I was &#039;dissing them or their friends.  (I will probably continue to use the line, however, since most find it funny.  Sort of like the mother-in-law jokes I use, most of which are happily provided by my dear mother-in-law.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, folks, let up!  The New York thing is a joke! No offense intended, although my own experience has been that out-of-towners are often more outwardly personable.  The difference quite likely is as a few of you say- a product of population density, etc.  Or for you humorless Litvaks, the NY thing is a cheftza, not a gavra (or giveres).</p>
<p>Apologies to anyone who thought I was &#8216;dissing them or their friends.  (I will probably continue to use the line, however, since most find it funny.  Sort of like the mother-in-law jokes I use, most of which are happily provided by my dear mother-in-law.)</p>
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		<title>By: Avi</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76817</link>
		<dc:creator>Avi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76817</guid>
		<description>I grew up in NY, but have lived outside of NY for many years. I have found it interesting that, whereas there is a small but noticeable minority of non-NYers who habitually return to the topic of the faults of the NY community (I&#039;m NOT accusing R&#039; Adlerstein of this), I rarely if ever came across NYers who did the same regarding any non-NY community.

(And I think it goes without saying that ALL communities have faults.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up in NY, but have lived outside of NY for many years. I have found it interesting that, whereas there is a small but noticeable minority of non-NYers who habitually return to the topic of the faults of the NY community (I&#8217;m NOT accusing R&#8217; Adlerstein of this), I rarely if ever came across NYers who did the same regarding any non-NY community.</p>
<p>(And I think it goes without saying that ALL communities have faults.)</p>
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		<title>By: Menachem Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76815</link>
		<dc:creator>Menachem Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76815</guid>
		<description>Rabbi Adlerstein -- It was nice meeting you at the AJOP conference, even if for but those few minutes that we had our ad-hoc hock meeting. I agree with many of your observations of the AJOP conference. I was most impressed with the the amounts of people, communal organizations, kollelim, etc., all focusing their energies on the same cause -- kiruv. Though I did not attend under the auspices of Yeshiva University, it should be noted that this year&#039;s AJOP conference included several of the members of YU&#039;s CJF and other young modern[ish] Orthodox rabbis. The brilliance of AJOP, I found, was that it serves as a tent broad enough to welcome everyone in; for everyone to grow from each other&#039;s strengths and to learn what programs those in the next community and next organization are successfully running to reach as many Jews as possible. Perhaps comparing in my mind the AJOP conference to the UJC&#039;s General Assembly (though the latter is much bigger in numbers), I was wondering why there weren&#039;t more yeshiva students, guys who will *soon* enter the field of kiruv. Perhaps they were there and I didn&#039;t see them. All in all, it was a great day and I really enjoyed attending. I look forward to seeing you next year for the 20th anniversary AJOP conference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbi Adlerstein &#8212; It was nice meeting you at the AJOP conference, even if for but those few minutes that we had our ad-hoc hock meeting. I agree with many of your observations of the AJOP conference. I was most impressed with the the amounts of people, communal organizations, kollelim, etc., all focusing their energies on the same cause &#8212; kiruv. Though I did not attend under the auspices of Yeshiva University, it should be noted that this year&#8217;s AJOP conference included several of the members of YU&#8217;s CJF and other young modern[ish] Orthodox rabbis. The brilliance of AJOP, I found, was that it serves as a tent broad enough to welcome everyone in; for everyone to grow from each other&#8217;s strengths and to learn what programs those in the next community and next organization are successfully running to reach as many Jews as possible. Perhaps comparing in my mind the AJOP conference to the UJC&#8217;s General Assembly (though the latter is much bigger in numbers), I was wondering why there weren&#8217;t more yeshiva students, guys who will *soon* enter the field of kiruv. Perhaps they were there and I didn&#8217;t see them. All in all, it was a great day and I really enjoyed attending. I look forward to seeing you next year for the 20th anniversary AJOP conference.</p>
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		<title>By: Micha Berger</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76811</link>
		<dc:creator>Micha Berger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76811</guid>
		<description>&quot;There was more camaraderie in the old AJOP. Many more people routinely passed each other in the halls without speaking or smiling. They must have started letting New Yorkers in.&quot;

That&#039;s a lot of Jews to ask mechilah from...

Truth is, there is common cause -- size. When the group gets large enough that sharing a smile with each becomes a constant interruption, fewer and fewer people do it. It&#039;s not that NYers are rude, it&#039;s that they live in a more dense area. Saying good Shabbos to every Jew you pass on Ave M, 13th Ave or Main Street is a constant affair. Not like passing another Jew during your Shabbos stroll down Jackson Street, Oshkosh WI.

Similarly, a side effect of kiruv&#039;s growth is the impossibility of investing time to bond with everyone. And therefore less effort is spent trying.

In short, it&#039;s a difference in situation, not person.

-mi

-mi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There was more camaraderie in the old AJOP. Many more people routinely passed each other in the halls without speaking or smiling. They must have started letting New Yorkers in.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a lot of Jews to ask mechilah from&#8230;</p>
<p>Truth is, there is common cause &#8212; size. When the group gets large enough that sharing a smile with each becomes a constant interruption, fewer and fewer people do it. It&#8217;s not that NYers are rude, it&#8217;s that they live in a more dense area. Saying good Shabbos to every Jew you pass on Ave M, 13th Ave or Main Street is a constant affair. Not like passing another Jew during your Shabbos stroll down Jackson Street, Oshkosh WI.</p>
<p>Similarly, a side effect of kiruv&#8217;s growth is the impossibility of investing time to bond with everyone. And therefore less effort is spent trying.</p>
<p>In short, it&#8217;s a difference in situation, not person.</p>
<p>-mi</p>
<p>-mi</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76805</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76805</guid>
		<description>For all of the attendance of New Yorkers in the area, one wonders why community kollelim seem to be sprouting up everywhere except Long Island. Nassau ( outside of Great Neck ,the Five Towns, Oceanside and West Hempstead ) and Suffolk Counties have the remnants of once dominant heterodox communities and/or JCCs . Chabad and NCSY are making inroads in this area which is very similar to the West Coast in being car happy and mall addicted, but the need for community kollelim for outreach in LI is IMO very apparent .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For all of the attendance of New Yorkers in the area, one wonders why community kollelim seem to be sprouting up everywhere except Long Island. Nassau ( outside of Great Neck ,the Five Towns, Oceanside and West Hempstead ) and Suffolk Counties have the remnants of once dominant heterodox communities and/or JCCs . Chabad and NCSY are making inroads in this area which is very similar to the West Coast in being car happy and mall addicted, but the need for community kollelim for outreach in LI is IMO very apparent .</p>
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		<title>By: Avi</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76804</link>
		<dc:creator>Avi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76804</guid>
		<description>&quot;There was more camaraderie in the old AJOP. Many more people routinely passed each other in the halls without speaking or smiling. They must have started letting New Yorkers in.&quot;

Is it at all possible that what caused this at the convention is the same thing that probably causes it in NY (and other large communities): given the sheer volume of people, if you stopped to speak with every person, you would literally have no time to get anything else done? And if it is indeed possible that this is the case: why the pejorative against New York&#039;s Orthodox Jews?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There was more camaraderie in the old AJOP. Many more people routinely passed each other in the halls without speaking or smiling. They must have started letting New Yorkers in.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is it at all possible that what caused this at the convention is the same thing that probably causes it in NY (and other large communities): given the sheer volume of people, if you stopped to speak with every person, you would literally have no time to get anything else done? And if it is indeed possible that this is the case: why the pejorative against New York&#8217;s Orthodox Jews?</p>
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		<title>By: easterner</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76803</link>
		<dc:creator>easterner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76803</guid>
		<description>1---- is there any data as to what the return on investment is?  ie  any way of quantitating return to total or partial mitzva observance?
[ i believe even in the case of tora umesora schooling, there is little data , accross the spectrum of dropout rates, retention etc] . if there is little data, it is hard to know who is getting good bang for the buck.

2---- i fear monochromacity means this is going forward to be a pure haredi endeavor producing like-hashkafic products. given the state of, let&#039;s say it hate and derision amongst segments of O jewry, i think the funding will increasingly have to come from only haredi sources--- since the outcome of kiruv will lead to more anti-Modern scorn....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1&#8212;- is there any data as to what the return on investment is?  ie  any way of quantitating return to total or partial mitzva observance?<br />
[ i believe even in the case of tora umesora schooling, there is little data , accross the spectrum of dropout rates, retention etc] . if there is little data, it is hard to know who is getting good bang for the buck.</p>
<p>2&#8212;- i fear monochromacity means this is going forward to be a pure haredi endeavor producing like-hashkafic products. given the state of, let&#8217;s say it hate and derision amongst segments of O jewry, i think the funding will increasingly have to come from only haredi sources&#8212; since the outcome of kiruv will lead to more anti-Modern scorn&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: chaim klein</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76795</link>
		<dc:creator>chaim klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76795</guid>
		<description>This all sounds so cheerfully optimistic. Their are worms in the apple. As a high school teacher in both the Yeshiva and Jewish Community School world and a person who is asked to speak / participate in kiruv talk from time to time, I am made aware of the palpable disappointment in the &quot;frum&quot; community, by too many in our audiences. Many people who made the move to a more committed life, too often, express disappointment in what they find once they have bought into the vision of a Torah life that we present to them. Living in an MO neighborhood, I find that those that marry MO find less to be disappointed with , as the difficulties of mating between MO FFB&#039;s and BT are not as challenging. However, in the single world of those that have made the commitment, those that are living the commitment and growing, find themselves increasingly alienated and marginalized by the FFB world. Also, once the BT gets up close, they are disappointed by the paucity of Frum lives being lived 
by the value system that they sought to partake of by making the transition to a committed life. Finally, as an FFB, educator in both the &quot;frum &quot; and non-frum community, I can tell you that we leave ourselves open to the charge that our significant lapses ( as a community , not necessarily every individual) acts as a deterrent to other seekers and , from what I can gather, contributes to the challenge of transmitting the values adopted by the parent BT to the children. I am told ( and have read) that the recidivist rate among the children of chozrim b&#039;etshuva is not minimal. I think it behooves those laboring in the vineyards of the 
L-rd to push for a programme of kiruv krovim as well. We FFBs need to see ourselves as Baalei T&#039;shuvah as well. 
The true arguement that Jews and Judaism are not always the same is valid, but it seems to lack much legitimacy in the eyes of the observor.
I believe we can do much better. Chaim Klein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This all sounds so cheerfully optimistic. Their are worms in the apple. As a high school teacher in both the Yeshiva and Jewish Community School world and a person who is asked to speak / participate in kiruv talk from time to time, I am made aware of the palpable disappointment in the &#8220;frum&#8221; community, by too many in our audiences. Many people who made the move to a more committed life, too often, express disappointment in what they find once they have bought into the vision of a Torah life that we present to them. Living in an MO neighborhood, I find that those that marry MO find less to be disappointed with , as the difficulties of mating between MO FFB&#8217;s and BT are not as challenging. However, in the single world of those that have made the commitment, those that are living the commitment and growing, find themselves increasingly alienated and marginalized by the FFB world. Also, once the BT gets up close, they are disappointed by the paucity of Frum lives being lived<br />
by the value system that they sought to partake of by making the transition to a committed life. Finally, as an FFB, educator in both the &#8220;frum &#8221; and non-frum community, I can tell you that we leave ourselves open to the charge that our significant lapses ( as a community , not necessarily every individual) acts as a deterrent to other seekers and , from what I can gather, contributes to the challenge of transmitting the values adopted by the parent BT to the children. I am told ( and have read) that the recidivist rate among the children of chozrim b&#8217;etshuva is not minimal. I think it behooves those laboring in the vineyards of the<br />
L-rd to push for a programme of kiruv krovim as well. We FFBs need to see ourselves as Baalei T&#8217;shuvah as well.<br />
The true arguement that Jews and Judaism are not always the same is valid, but it seems to lack much legitimacy in the eyes of the observor.<br />
I believe we can do much better. Chaim Klein</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Maryles</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/comment-page-1/#comment-76793</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Maryles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/01/17/the-changing-face-of-kiruv/#comment-76793</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We tended to forget in the old days that perhaps the single largest (this is admittedly a guestimate) – and enviably successful – kiruv organization is NCSY. This has not changed. We still forget it. And it is still true!&lt;/i&gt;

I am certainly not an expert on which organizations are the most successful but it makes me happy, if the above statement is true. (And this has nothing to do with the fact that my son in law, Rabbi Micah Greenland, is the very successful regional director of the Midwest Mesorah Region of NCSY )

I am a big fan of NCSY. They are all about Emes and not at all about specific Hashkafa. I’ve said this many times. They are interested in making young public high school students observant. And they don’t care  if you choose a Charedi path of a modern Orthodox one.  NCSY “graduates” from the Midwest have been mainstreamed into all the Orthodox streams. Some are in Telshe, some in HTC, some in Ida Crown (mixed gender), some in W.I.T.S. (Chafetz Chaim).  Many go to Israel after high school and grow there. What NCSY does is to try and find the niche one would best fit into and encourage that, rather than trying to fit everyone into a single mold, the way Lubavitch for example does.

But is NCSY really the most successful? I believe that when it comes to sheer numbers, it would be Lubavitch, wouldn’t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We tended to forget in the old days that perhaps the single largest (this is admittedly a guestimate) – and enviably successful – kiruv organization is NCSY. This has not changed. We still forget it. And it is still true!</i></p>
<p>I am certainly not an expert on which organizations are the most successful but it makes me happy, if the above statement is true. (And this has nothing to do with the fact that my son in law, Rabbi Micah Greenland, is the very successful regional director of the Midwest Mesorah Region of NCSY )</p>
<p>I am a big fan of NCSY. They are all about Emes and not at all about specific Hashkafa. I’ve said this many times. They are interested in making young public high school students observant. And they don’t care  if you choose a Charedi path of a modern Orthodox one.  NCSY “graduates” from the Midwest have been mainstreamed into all the Orthodox streams. Some are in Telshe, some in HTC, some in Ida Crown (mixed gender), some in W.I.T.S. (Chafetz Chaim).  Many go to Israel after high school and grow there. What NCSY does is to try and find the niche one would best fit into and encourage that, rather than trying to fit everyone into a single mold, the way Lubavitch for example does.</p>
<p>But is NCSY really the most successful? I believe that when it comes to sheer numbers, it would be Lubavitch, wouldn’t it?</p>
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