I don’t believe that is true. Rav Shach, for example, was very much for Batei Yaakov, but fits the mold of the charedi you disparage. All I am saying is that your very strong arguments are a kasha, not a terutz.

they r worse than traif-chicken sellers, they r helping murderers.
ahamanijad, arafat, etc. all were very happy to have the nk’s support because it helped them. the nk’s support iran because it wants to annihilate the jews in israel.

i pray for the nk’s 3 times every day in the bracha that was written for them:
and for the slanderers let there be no hope… may You speedily uproot, smash cast down, and humble the wanton sinners…

they do it partly b/c their insane, partly b/c theyr’e evil and also because they get money. arafat didn’t just pay hirsch, nk protestors r often payed.

“I want the Jewish People to survive and we in America have found what works.”

Is there less assimilation in the US? Please quote hard numbers. Are the talmidei chachamim in the US greater? Is there less mental illness? Divource? A more successful t’shuvah movement? Does the average American frum Jew have a stronger sense of kesher to Torah and Mitzvos than the Israeli Frum Jew? Yes, poverty relative to the general population, is worse in EY but even that is beginning to change as a consequence of tuitions. So please explain clearly by what objective measure you are certian that American Yiddishkeit “works” better than Israeli.

Maybe the next step is for Chareidim to speak of bloggism, and rightly so.

yes, but only at a separate swimming beach

I think others have that concern. If I was a chraedi rabbinic or layleader, I would read blogs, and try to respond to people’s concerns through some form of communication, media or otherwise. Certain things can not be changed because they are core charedi philosophy, but others may be able to be slowly changed.

“In any event the standards of modern “frumkeit” are largely determined by whomever sounds the frummest”

I don’t think that the entire system is based on external frumkeit, but it is something which needs to be taken into account, so that superficial frumkeit doesn’t take on a life of its own.

“I think this statement itself is not normative; but a reaction to the failurures of Charedism.”

I thought all “isms” were treif

I am wondering if bloggers are the first ones to use the term “Charedism”. Why not refer to “failings of the charedi community”, or to “weak points of charedi ideology”?

- I think this statement itself is not normative; but a reaction to the failurures of Charedism. To point out that there is another way is one thing, but to be mevatel their (Israeli charedim’s) whole way is something else. I don’t believe that Rav Shach, Rav Steinmen, Rav Auerback, or even Rav Ruderman would agree with you that the NIRC style is objectively better. So on whom are we relying for such strong proouncements?

Some people seem to think that the Iranian leader has only a political issue with the State of Israel. The sentiment seems to be: “If that State would just disband then Iran would put its nuclear toys away and all would be well with world Jewry.” As if before Zionism the world loved us. The Satmar Rov ZTL was the pre-eminent Jewish voice of anti-Zionism, but he nonetheless encouraged US politicians to support the State because he understood, as is obvious, that anti-Zionism on the part of a non-Jew is of a piece with anti-the-Jews. I doubt there’s anything else the Iranians say which you trust, so why do you trust this? [Answer: because you like seeing Zionists squirm. No problem, but please, not at the expense of their lives. The Satmar Rov ZTL understood this, and we can too.]

This band of kooks within NK has participated in a Holocaust Denial Conference [the press did NOT get the distinctions made in NK's various speeches, etc] and has given public support to the guys who want to annihilate us. Sure, our tradition is replete with examples of ’shtadlanus’ - quiet diplomacy to attempt to undo or pre-empt anti-Jewish policies. So here’s the rub: if this NK participation had really been a R Yochanan/Weissmandl kind of outreach, do you really think NK would have done it in a way that necessarily involved massive publicity and payments for and to the NKers? Did R Yochanan take money from the Romans? Did R Weissmandl brazenly ignore the dictates of the generation’s Torah leadership? Would the Iraninans have given this such public play if they didn’t understand how well these kooks fit into their own plans? How do the NKers justify endangering the Jews to save the world from Zionism which endangers the Jews?

Bottom line: They are not meshuga, they are not naive. They are a determined (though tiny) enemy of G-d and the Jewish people who understand exactly what they are doing and do not find the ramifications troubling. They know that they are working their agenda only. If they cared about the Jews they would listen to any one of the many denunciations which has been issued by Charedi leadership.

Please don’t get caught up in the Monsey analogy; the chicken guy was totally run out of town, but I can also argue both sides of the analogy - and I indicated that it might not be a perfect analogy. The main and fair point is that Charedim can and should do more to distance themselves from these NK activities. NK-ism of the type exhibited in Iran does derive from the principled anti-Zionism to which most Charedim appropriately subscribe. As such the Charedi community must take appropriate, legal, sustained action to attempt to shut them down. Failure to expend strenuous efforts to do so fairly invites the conclusion that the Charedi mindset is that ”we’ll just throw some platitudes at it but, because it parades as anti-zionism, we’ll basically just let it be.”

“Just as the Baruch Goldstein monstorous mass murder caused consternation in the MO community-see eg R. A. Lichtenstein’s comments-so too should the actions of NK cause consternation in the chareidi community. Unfortunately, there is an non insignificant subset of Chareidi believers who refer snidely to Israel as “medinah of reishut”

A leader of the MO community condemned Goldstein’s killing spree and many Charedi leaders condemned the NK’s visit to Tehran.

Conversely, you accuse a “subset” of Charedi “believers” who apparently have not cleaned up a supposed residue of NK philosophy so therefore you’re saying the MO has seized a higher moral ground.

However, you fail to reveal that many a “non insignificant subset” in the “MO” community consider (unfortunately) Rav Leichtenstein and his Meimad party which favors territorial compromise to be a bunch of sellouts while having no qualms about Goldstein’s actions.

Your observation appears very subjective.

“I don’t know Persian but from what I understand Ahmadinajad talks about the demise of the state of Israel qua Jewish state (regime change?), which is not necessarily the demise of Jews who live in Israel.”

Mrs. Schmidt is clearly helping to make the point that the NK is mearly the logical result of an idealogy that would deny G-d’s providence in helping to establish a national home for the Jews in their land. The NK and obviously Mrs. Schmidt as well are so blinded by their desire to undo the work of the “evil” Zionists that they are willing to give a voice to a person that much of the rational world sees as a raving lunatic.

Mrs. Schmidt is willing to risk my life and that of my family in the naive assertion that Ahmadinajad merely wants the “demise of the Jewish State” which doesn’t “necessarily” mean my demise.

Mrs. Schmidt probably believes that in Ahmadinajad’s threats to nuke Israel he’ll somehow drop a protective shield over B’nei Brak and the towns of others of those who merely want regime change here.

Mrs. Schmidt obviously assumes that the new Moslem “regime” would be one of benevolence and caring that would treat its Jewish subjects with fairness and respect.

To me Mrs. Schmidt’s statement, coming from someone as well read and intellectual as her, is far more threatening that a few NK wackos meeting with the world’s leading nutcase.

- sounds like a business oportunity for someone not into kashrus

- he knew he didn;t stand a chancde of surviving; which is a statement about the society

“they have indeed been severely ostracized in their respective communities”

- evidently not to the same degree as was Chicken of the Flee

Friedman’s wife also demanded a get. They weren’t staying together at the Boro Park Hotel over Shabbos. I wonder if it will slow him down at all.

The NK sincerely believe they are doing klal yisroel a favor. Of course, as the Chofetz Chaim said, one fool can do more damage than ten reshaim, and the NK well exemplify this dictum. But be that as it may, they sincerely believe they have done nothing wrong.

And the reality is, as I understand it, that they have indeed been severely ostracized in their respective communities, be they Monsey, Manchester, or whereever.

Charedim (and Religious Zionists) must be alert to the potential byproducts of their message. If the byproducts cannot be eliminated by nuance, then we must consider toning down our message — even to our own community, even at the risk of accomplishing less.