JO, it was actually a typo, as I meant Kew Garden Hills, but only because I have some (small) familiarity with the community, not to exclude Kew Gardens. I have no familiarity with Kew Gardens at all, so I would have no idea to which category it belongs.

Just using these communities to illustrate places which have a large and vibrant Orthodox presence and infrastructure, nothing more.

how can you put Kew Gardens in the same category as Passaic, Lakewood and Flatbush?

I don’t think I’ve ever perseverated so much on semantics

I think we’re (mostly) on the same page. I think I’m going on a sabbatical from labels, and I’ll sign off as an imperfect, trying to be a good “Jew”.

The term is indeed a basic and important one, but the fact that it’s used in a sectarian way by some of the media, may eventually dilute it’s effectiveness. Such terms should be left purely to define a Yahadut Hatorah– not the political party

When you start politicizing a sacred concept, you dilute it, to the opposite of one’s good intentions. Similarly, the ideas of chachmei hatorah and kavod hatorah are serious and important ones in chazal and in halacha. Yet the term “Gedolim”, outside the yeshiva/charedi world, is not thought to be that same, identical concept.

As you imply regarding the usage of the term “Torah-true”, one should use the term “Gedolim” as fairly as possible, so as not to dilute the meaning of the words Gedolie Torah. Perhaps one should explain to outsiders, that the term ” our Gedolim”, in it’s most narrowest sense, refers to a specific community’s Torah leaders. If you recognize that a community is a valid Torah community, then by definition, it has its own Gedolim, or leaders. Alternatively, one might define Gedolim as people great in Torah and yiras shomayim, as opposed to having a certain Mesorah on specific issues as a requirement for being a Gadol B’torah(eg., views on Zionism, secular studies).

I mentioned on a different thread that the American Yated recently carefully critiqued the practice of using Gedolie Torah in photo-ops for tzedokah purposes. Might the practice of printing and trading of Gedolim cards, also have led to a dilution of the concept? All of this began with the advent of photography and is “chadoshim m’karuv bau”. Perhaps one can substitute a different hobby, such as collecting Tanach cards, to sublimate the desire to collect and trade baseball cards and stamps.

I agree with your aversion to the term “fervently Orthodox”.

However, in regard to the term “Torah-true Jew”, the fact that certain media which cater to specific segments of Torah-true society describe themselves as “newspaper of Torah Jewry”, or a “Torah-true newspaper” is irrelevant to whether the term is a good or not.

“Fervent” is a very subjective, judgemental adjective that could arguably be used to describe many Jews from many Torah-true streams of Jewish life. Torah-true implies that we are true to Torah- accepting its Divinity, the Mitzvos therein, and our loyalty to these concepts.

In my interaction with members of Reform and particularly Conservative movements, they often assert their loyalty to Torah “as they understand and interpret it”; some genuinely feel the Torah as a central component of at least their temple life, albeit terribly mislead as to its contents. Hence, “Torah-true” is actually a declaration that we are people who identify as living by the Torah according to Mesorah. It is a meaningful term.

I first heard “Torah-true” used many years ago by some “out-of-town” friends, who had little connection to Boro-Park, Monsey, Kew Gardens, Passaic, Lakewood, Flatbush, etc life. They, as most of their friends, were staunch, proud, and observant Jews. A child nearby asked my friend, “Are you Chassidish? Litvish? What are you?”

Replied the individual, “We’re Torah-true Jews”. I thought the term perfect, and the child looked awed. She might not have understood the term, but my friend said it with such quiet confidence and pride in being “Torah-true”, that it sounded like something really special. It is.

Torah-true is a basic term, not sectarian. It means true to Torah. It has no connotations such as “fervently or ultra” (which make little sense), it is simply basic to our identity as Jews who try to keep the Torah in its entirety and accept the fundamentals of Judaism.

Even the latter label may be misused, or may be subject to interpretation. I have seen newspapers being described as the “newspaper of Torah Jewry”, or a “Torah-true newspaper”. In such cases “Torah Jewry” and “Torah-true” are not synonymous with the term “shomer Torah u’mitzvos”.

The term “fervently Orthodox” is also subjective; who is to say who is “fervent” in their observance and who is not? Are we better than Hashem who said: “ki haadam yireh laniyim v’ashem yireh lalevav”? Some people even use “non-yet observant”, instead of “non-observant”. But practically speaking, we need labels to describe sociological facts to ourselves and to outsiders; we just should remember they are imperfect descriptions.

- Now I need to ask Jonathan if he considers himself charedi. From my memory, he never attended any place more right wing than NIRC (having arrived there from KBY)

I agree. I usually use “Observant Jew” or “Torah-true Jew” when the need for a label comes up. And although Agudah and non-Orthodox writers employ the term “Charedi” in their writings, the term is not in use for most of us regular folk. I don’t hear it, and I don’t use it.

I don’t have anything against the term. It’s simply not a label that regular Orthodox, even right wing people use to describe themselves. I worked in Williamsburgh many years ago, and the term wasn’t even used there. Perhaps things have changed, though.

Orthodox Jews fall out on a spectrum, and kol ha’kavod to all Jews who keep any level of mitzvoth observance. However, it is a fact that the vast majority of RZ or MO people point to two gedolim: Ha Rav and The Rav. And both of them were daas yechidim - they didn’t follow the majority of their colleagues whose talmudic knowledge was roughly equal to theirs. The Satmar Rov was also a daas yachid. Everybody needs at least one rav, especially a gadol. Rav Aharon had Rav Moshe and Rav Yitzhok and Rav Shraga Feivel and Rav Ruderman and Rav Hutner, not to mention Rav Shach and the Chazon Ish, and this is just a partial list.
No matter how much of a genius someone is, they need to be able to convince others of equal caliber that their ideas are correct.

Otherwise, perhaps Rabbi Weiss and his Neuteri Karta colleagues can just say they follow their own counsel, their own “Gedolei Yisroel”. And if you can’t find a Rav to support your position, just start your own Yeshiva. And declare yourself a gadol, and there you are.

Agudath Israel uses the term “charedi” when speaking to the press concerning it’s Yeshiva World/Right-Wing Orthodox American constituency, and non-charedi writers have been using the term in the same way at least since the early 1990’s. In Israel, the term emphasizes some amount of separation from secular society, but in America, I think, it refers to someone who follows Daas Torah of charedi gedolim. Someone who doesn’t follow the wedding takanos(guidelines), for example, would not be acting according charedi philosophy, even if he calls himself “hemishe” or “litvish”. OTOH, a person pursuing a PHD in engineering can be considered charedi in the U.S.( and even in Israel under some conditions), if he or she follows all other charedi societal norms.

Bloggers have added to the confusion by adding more labels referring to different subgroups of Orthodox Judaism such as : “right-wing charedi, left-wing charedi, right-wing MO, and left-wing MO”. I have heard the term “engaged-yeshivish” as well. The opposite extreme to all of this is Chananya Weissman’s article in this past November’s Jewish Press(“Tearing off Labels”) of avoiding all labels when referring to people, even basic ones such as “Orthodox”.

Personally, I think the term “Torah-Jew” has a more pleasant ring to it, although it doesn’t adequately describe significant differences among Orthodoxy. This term would include many in both Modern Orthodoxy and the Yeshivah world who are Shomrei Torah Umitzvos, even though they have different views regarding the extent of Daas Torah(or whatever other term one wants to use to describe some form of rabbinic authority).

“it is conceded by the most secular of Holocaust scholars that the majority of the Six Million were traditional, Orthodox Jews.”

It is also quite likely that, had the “chareidi” elite in Europe not been so stubbornly anti-Zionist, there would have been fewer “traditional, orthodox” korbanot. And of course the state that then formed would have been much more in line with the religious ideals that so many of today’s chareidim, both here and in the diaspora, bellyache that it’s not.

“Assuming that “Charedim” denotes Torah observant Jews (such as observant, orthodox, or frum), the two are inextricably bound.”

“You are either deliberately ignoring the standard definition of “Charedi” or you are slandering the huge numbers of non-Charedi Jews who are fully “observant, orthodox, or frum”.

Perhaps you and I have different definitions. I’ve have never, except in blogs (such as this one), heard or used the word Charedi in reference to American Orthodox Jews. I’ve lived in a number of large Orthodox Jewish communities, and this term simply doesn’t exist except in reference to one type of Orthodox Jew in EY. We ask if that school in NY is frum, if the Shul we may wish to visit during a convention weekend is Orthodox, etc. Never do you hear someone inquire: How Charedi is that potential shidduch from Five Towns that you are suggesting.

If R’ Menken uses the term “Charedi” for Orthodox Jews in the U.S., that’s none of my business, but it certainly doesn’t have the same connotations here as it does in EY.

In my comment, I was the one who equated “Charedi” with “observant, orthodox, frum”- this is a very inclusive category. I’m not sure why you have strong feelings regarding this; perhaps a closer reading would provide you with greater clarity (and a better appreciation of dan l’kaf zechut).

“A shadow on Torah-observant Jewry certainly is associated with Torah, unlike simply being “Jewish”.”

“I’m afraid I don’t know what this means.”

A second reading would be helpful here as well.

Whenever I read of the “tradition” that subsumes all our tragedies, including the Shoah, under the umbrella of Tisha B’Av, I wonder how Chazal found license to appropriate, not one day or one week, but seven weeks of quasi aveilus for the tragedy that the weeks of sefirah have come to repesent. Surely another kinnah for R. Akiva’s talmidim would have sufficed if the few additional kinnos for the six million do.

I suspect the Chareidi discomfiture regarding a commemorative Yom HaShoah has much less to do with the all encomapassing Tisha B’Av and more to do with those who established it.

“Assuming that “Charedim” denotes Torah observant Jews (such as observant, orthodox, or frum), the two are inextricably bound.”

You are either deliberately ignoring the standard definition of “Charedi” or you are slandering the huge numbers of non-Charedi Jews who are fully “observant, orthodox, or frum”.

“A shadow on Torah-observant Jewry certainly is associated with Torah, unlike simply being “Jewish”.”

I’m afraid I don’t know what this means.

Sometimes I wonder if those who write things like this post or this comment have ever come into contact with the very real pain of those who, e.g., are fully frum and are told they aren’t. Or who have kids in the IDF and are told they aren’t worth a tefillah. Or who are Holocaust survivors and see people ignoring commemerations with hairsplitting answers- or who saw a huge Nechama three years after the war and are told it means nothing. I’ve met examples of all four, and trust me, the pain is real.

You asked for ideas on how to disassociate from NK. I responded with a few very simmple ones You then accuse me repeating canards, and then youenter into a whole slew of them yourself! What you said about RZs is inexcusable.

I did not say anybody should pray for the IDF. My comment was about publicly announcing a refusal to pray for the IDF, a la R.Moshe Shternbuch, a large difference.
You made a comment about Herzl, Ben Gurion, Yossi Sarid not praying for anything. How do you know?
FYI, a visit to Ben Gurion’s house in Tel Aviv might surprise you. Not only is there a full set of Shas, he studied it regularly. And he also had a Chumash class weekly!
Herzl, although raised oblivious to Torah Judaism, made a remarkable statement in 1897 that” there could be no return to Zion without a return to Judaism”. I Also suggest you read his majestic auto-biographical essay, The Menorah.
As for the Cheredim/ Agudah donating to NK in England, I believe it was I who made you aware of this. They only stopped it when an important group broke away, after warning about a previous donation.
I have more to say.

Cherems are not enough. They are merely good starts.
Public statements condemning them are not enough. They are merely step one.
Neturei Karta must be put out of business - legally.

The time has come to take drastic legal measures to respond to the Naturei Karta chillul hashem. I have come up with a few ideas and welcome your thoughts.

1. For each member of NK: get their picture, and complete contact information (name, address, telephone) for public dissemination. Create a “wanted” poster of their identities. People must know who they are and where they live. We can then pressure their respective communities but only if we know who they are. We must know exactly what Chassidic denomination they belong to. If they dare enter our Shuls, we will throw them out. When they come to our communities to speak we will find out where they are staying and who their hosts are and will protest accordingly. When they eat at our Kosher restaurants we will inform the proprietors that we will boycott their establishments unless the NK patrons are asked to leave. We will pressure their Yeshivas to kick their children out of their schools. We will discourage Shidduchim with their families. We will not attend their Simchas and we will tell them why. Again, we must know who they are. Further, we must learn who supports them financially. They are getting money from somewhere. Who is funding them. Whoever that is, we will boycott them.

2. Challenge their IRS tax exempt status. Someone is funding their travel and speaking engagements to anti-Israel and hostile arab groups, and is getting the benefits of a charitable deduction in the process. We need to alert the IRS of NK’s terrorist affiliations jeopardize their tax exempt status. This will chill charitable donations to their cause. Let’s bankrupt them and put them out of business. Someone is paying NK money. Every week they are flying all across the globe, staying at hotels, etc. Who is funding them? Cut them off at the source.

3. Lobby our political leaders to have them demand that the United States State Department brand the NK organization (and its members) as a terrorist organization or as a supporter of terrorism and render it illegal (like the State Department did to JDL/KACH). An aggressive politician who is eager to make a name for himself can open Congressional inquiries into the activities of NK and challenge their tax-exempt status. NK’s records could be subpoenaed. Most importantly, the Israeli government must brand them illegal like it did to JDL/KACH.

4. Publish all of the Cherems that are out against NK. The Chief Rabbi of Israel has called for a new Cherem against NK.

5. Encourage our Rabbonim and Jewish leaders to stop disregarding them as insignificant. Acknowledge that they are dangerous. Discredit them.

6. Collect pictures of them posing with arab leaders and place them on one screen for everyone to see their atrocious bedfellows: ie., Arafat, Ahmadinejad, Farakhan (below), and their horrific protest placards. The more pictures, the more horrific the outrage.

7. Prosecute NK in the International Criminal Courts. Follow my logic here: If Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s stated objective of “wiping Israel off the map” (his consistent denial of the Holocaust, and his country’s pursuit of nuclear and ballistic missile capacity) violates the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, then wouldn’t NK be guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy (Iran’s Ahmadinejad)? I’m not an expert in this area of law, but what about treason (the crime of disloyalty to one’s nation or state. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran’s Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: “…[a]… citizen’s actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation].” In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavor)?

8. If the NK members live in Israel, and they have publicly supported an enemy of the State of Israel, would that not make them “traitors” and they should be tried as such by the Israeli government? Again, Israeli Knesset members have the right to conduct inquiries into the NK as enemies of the state. How do we know that they are not undermining our security by providing information to Arabs?

9. Call into radio and TV shows that present NK and express your rage. Discredit them wherever they appear. Because of this email (an earlier version), I was invited to comment (not debate) NK on Radio Spain http://www.rem.fm, and as http://www.theyeshivaworld.com blog put it: I ripped them to shreds. Listen to the entire interview at: Click here: YESHIVA WORLD NEWS » Blog Archive » Weiss gets ripped to shreds in radio interview#comments#comments#comments#comm . Further, there will be a protest at NK’s office in Monsey, NY. Please check out: Click here: “Operation Screwball” In Monsey, exposing the evil in our own backyards.

10. I am eager to take them on in any media interview. I have a very comprehensive file on them and know how to effectively discredit them. If you know in advance that NK will be appearing on a show, let the host know that I am able to debate them and that I’m always ready to do so. Forward the radio/TV host this email.

Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
Law Office of Baruch C. Cohen, APLC
4929 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 940
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Telephone (323) 937-4501
Facsimile (323) 937-4503
e-mail: azqbng@aol.com

“I wonder if the above commenters MB and MK would agree that we need to pray for a new management team for the State.”

That is essentially what the tefillah for the medina is, i.e. by saying Hashem should inspire her leaders, the clear implication is that if they aren’t so inspired whe should have leaders who are.

A good chunk of the RW world turned a blind eye, at best, to NK as long as they were “only” working against the state of Israel, no matter who vile their actions were then. They only recently crossed the line in the eyes the RW world when they got into bed with holocaust deniers.

(I had such a conversation at Shabbos lunch with a relative — with disappointing results.)

Assuming that “Charedim” denotes Torah observant Jews (such as observant, orthodox, or frum), the two are inextricably bound. A shadow on Torah-observant Jewry certainly is associated with Torah, unlike simply being “Jewish”.