NeTzachToni! You’re a better man than me.

Dovid: Two problems with this statement. (1) They have no axe to grind in favor of hareidim. But they have a big axe to grind against Hareidim. Therefore, they never properly report news related to the Hareidi community. (2) In one breath you reveal that you read secular newspapers and call yourself one of the original followers of Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zichrono l’vrechah. If you ever were, you stopped being one. The Rav fiercely objected to secular newspapers. He stated this many times. Ha’aretz is notoriously anti-Jewish and anti-Israel even to secular Jews and it is against everything that the Torah community holds dear. Jerusalem Post, while striving for the center of Israel’s secular political landscape, it will not hesitate to publish articles profoundly hostile to the Hareidi community. For “balance”. They also publish Jonathan Rosenblum’s articles. For “balance”. Jonathan used to have his column every week. They cut it down to once every two weeks. (For “balance”. There was just too much k’dushah.) They also publish a Palestinian’s anti-Israeli musings. This is again for “balance”. JPost is the consummate politically correct Israeli publication. Don’t read it.

One more issue. This discussion started off with the incident in the bus about separate seating for men and women. You hostility toward the woman in question appears to have been fueled by your belief that separate seating is a good thing, which it is. If that’s the case, let’s take a quick look at the benefits of separate seating. There are many but the most obvious one is shmiras eynayim. If shmiras eynayim is so important to you, that you defend four males beating up a woman and calling her names, how come you have no objection to reading secular newspapers which are replete with pictures of barely clad women. Jerusalem Post for instance places such pictures among other places, side by side with Jonathan Rosenblum’s articles. This must be for “balance”. Tumah geneged taharah. The Alter of Slobodka urges you not to be a fool. I urge you: Don’t fool yourself! Reb Yid, you can’t have it both ways. A piece of good news. Yated Neeman publishes Jonathan Rosenblum’s articles without JPost’s pritzus add-ons.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

I brought proofs for my position from secular newspapers, because they have no axe to grind in favor of hareidim, so we can reasonably assume that they properly reported her obnoxious behavior vis-a-vis the hareidim on the bus.

In fact, people did speak up. They told her that she is Meshuga!

I’m one of the original followers of Rav Miller, ZT”L, and I agree with your prescription–Don’t be a fool!

Dovid: YES. The other riders’ remaining quiet in the face of such an avlah, rendered these “Hareidim” the official representatives of the religious communities all over the world. This proves that silence is not always gold.
HILLEL: Her crime is much, much worse than theirs, because she is assaulting the entire Hareidi community.
Dovid: This is not true. Those “Hareidim” brought disrepute on all of us. Whether frum or not, this woman was sitting in her place by right.
HILLEL: Frankly, based on her reaction, I question her commitment to authentic Torah Judaism.

HILLEL: Thanks for linking the Haaretz article on this incident. My conclusion, after reading it is that this lady has a credibility problem…

HILLEL: Here is a factual article from the Jerusaelm Post on …

Dovid: Based on your comments, you Hillel, have a much greater credibility issue. You went out of your way to prove that the woman in question is not observant, an impostor, or that she may even be an agente provocateure (lashon nekeva in French, lashon harah in all the other leshonos). First of all, you did not convince me and hope didn’t convince the readership that she is all that. For argument’s sake, let’s assume you are right. Then, her going to Ha’aretz would be consistent with the character that you described her. The massive lashon harah that you engaged in is not compatible with authentic Torah Judaism. Furthermore, you read Ha’aretz and Jerusalem Post and bring proofs to your position from them. Both publications are incompatible with authentic Torah Judaism. Ask people smarter than you and me on both issues. They will confirm it.

The authors of several comments were skeptical of the merits of separate seating for men and women. I think we should try to implement it. Separate seating is a fence against a serious averah, it’s a hidur that will earn us tremendous benefits in olam haze and olam habah. While men are the main beneficiaries, women would also stand to gain. I remember Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zichrono l’vrechah, asking in the name of the Alter of Slobodka: What’s the first mitzvah in the Torah? He answered, again the name of the Alter: The first mitzvah is: DON’T BE A FOOL!!! The implementation of the separate seating policy requires thought. Convenience to ladies needs to be factored in because they carry many bags and push carriages with little children. Security should also be considered. We make fools of ourselves and deserve the resulting bad press if we leave the implementation of this hidur mitzvah to bullies bent on advancing their agenda.

As to the comments that she provoked them by refusing to move: That is depraved. That is what men who beat their wives say and tell themselves. That is also what victims of repeated physical abuse convince themselves.

Here is a fauctual article from the Jerusaelm Post on the 11 Egged Mehadrin bus lines:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1164881792994

Quote from the Haaretz article:
“In the coming month, IRAC(Reform Judaism group) will be submitting a petition to the High Court of Justice against the Transportation Ministry over the issue of segregated Egged buses. IRAC attorney Orly Erez-Likhovski is in touch with Shear and is considering including her in the petition.”

She also cooperated with the reporter from the anti-Hareidi Haaretz newspaper in publicising her story form use in a “hit piece” against Hareidim.

1. Bus drivers pay attention primarily to what is happening outside the bus. Those who don’t get into accidents and don’t stay on their jobs very long.

2. The bus driver may be disciplined for ignoring an attack on a passenger, so even if he witnessed such an attack it would be in his best interest to try and keep it quiet.

3. The bus driver probably drives #2 bus in Jerusalem every day. He will have to interact with the alleged attackers again.

I do not believe that most of the readers DO believe this. I personally find the segregated buses extremely bothersome, burdensome, and offensive. On those buses which are actually “mehadrin” (and I disagree with the term, but that seems to be the semi-official one), I sit in the back when I have to ride them — and I will avoid taking them in the first place when that is an option.

The #2 is not designated as such, and when I have ridden it I have sat wherever a seat was available. As on any bus, in any country, if someone (male, female, whatever) has asked me to give up my seat, I have usually done so. My theory is that if someone is asking for it, they probably need it more than I do. (Exceptions are when I was pregnant or very tired.)

My understanding of the halacha is that the obligation is on men. Why then with these buses does the acharyis seem to fall on women?

G-d never gave us impractical advice, such as “love your enemies” or “turn the other cheek”. The Torah clearly states that society has to have standards, and that those standards need to be enforced. There are cases when spilling blood is appropriate.

Was this one of them? If Israel had been a Torah society, if Beit HaMikdash was open to sacrifices, if a Sanhedrin ruled the land – would this woman had been put to death? Even if our Sanhedrin wanted the title of “a killer Sanhedrin”, and made sure to execute a person every seven years to get it, is this woman truly the worst sinner in the last seven years, the one most deserving of death?

If not, then isn’t acting like this a sin, even if she insulted first? A wiser course might have been to ignore her, or to start talking about tzniut and the wisdom of gender segregation is buses and hope she’ll get the hint. Or maybe one man could tell his fellow that he can’t take his eyes off of her, and he knows it’s bad to be sexually attracted to a woman who is not his wife.

Of course, Hillel’s scenario might be right. It is even possible that she wished to provoke an attack, so she can justify going to court and canceling the Mehadrim lines. Of course, if that is the case then those Haredi men acted exactly as she manipulated them to do.

Most Israeli Haredi men spent years in Torah study. Isn’t Torah study supposed to teach one how to control the Yetzer in the face of temptations (such as provocation), as well as the logic required to not act according to the plan of somebody who manipulates you to his or her benefit?

Ori, if the people who have rancor are also confused, wouldn’t that reduce their ability to cause damage?

If you want to respond to somebody, please start with their name, then a colon, then their text in bold. To make text bold, write it like this: <B> text you’re quoting </B>.

Rancor might be a necessary ingredient in this discussion. Confusion is not.

You didn’t convince me. I believe along with most of the readers that the initiative of and the purpose for separate seating are praiseworthy and should be pursued. Granted, the execution was poor. The reasons for it are many. One of them is that people lose sight of the fact that it’s a chumrah. If a woman sits down in the front and after being asked pleasantly (it didn’t happen in the maaseh in question), and she still doesn’t budge, so be it. We lived with it until now. We should continue to sit in the area designated for men and continue to suggest ladies in a respectful way to move to their area. Our protest against perpetrators of such incidents should take the form of standing up firmly, at the time and place of the maaseh, and not allowing them to force their agenda down our throats.

It appears from some of the comments posted that we are mad at this lady for reporting the story to Ha’aretz and are eager to point out her unladylike reaction in the bus. How about us? Men touched and disgraced her in public and we remained mum. Let’s be concerned about our aveiros not hers.

I believe I am protesting with the tools that Hashem and the Torah give us. You assert that a decision by a male to sit in the back of the bus “will only add fuel to the fire.” I disagree: I believe the fire has already been ignited, and it now our job to fight it lest it spread even further.

Let us ask: What would our great rabbonim and rebbeim of Europe, and our noble rishonim and Chachamim have said about this situation? About the imposition of a private chumro on a public utility–an imposition that has now led to violence as we know, but even more has led to animosity, anger and alienation between yidden ? Would they be proud of the results? Would they insist like an unmovable mountain that this innovative private chumro must continue to be extended by strength into the public sphere? Or would they declare that the attempt to machmirize the public kotel bus was an experiment gone terribly wrong, and in light of the results the experiment is immediately terminated. You know what I think — what about the rest of us?

Dovid, you write that sitting in the back of the bus would “not amplify kvod shomaim… [or] kvod ha’briyos.” Again I disagree: Nothing could degrade or disparage kvod shomayim and kvod ha’briyos more than the types of actions that apparently took place on that bus. And it gets even worse. Because few things could further disparage kvod shomayim more than a spreading belief that the kotel, our only link back to the Beis Hamikdash, the Home and sanctuary at which every segment and tribe of Am Yisroel gathered together, is devolving into the colonized protectorate of a narrow, antagonistic, disdainful, and even fanatical sect and ideology that has established its power by dint of intimidation and communal disinterest. It is hard to think of a phenomenon that could be more damaging to the Jewish people than that.

This situation would be burdensome enough if it solely involved one fanatical assailant (b/c as we all know, every population has its fanatics). Unfortunately this issue is far broader. It involved the bus passengers as well and it now involves the broader shomer Torah community. The responses to this event, in multiple forums from persons speaking as defenders of chareidi communities and ideologies, only confirms and amplifies the danger I sense from this phenomenon and my assessment of it as a threat–yes, a threat–to Am Yisroel. What these people are representing and demanding is simply not our Torah.

And those responses are evidence enough that the machmir bus movement is not, at root, about kvod shomayim and kvod ha’briyos. Rather it’s about power, control and sadly anger. Those who feel compelled to only utilize machmirzed forms of transportation (at this point I can’t even tell what specific chumros are involved–can you?) should simply purchase or lease vehicles that will allow such services to be provided to them on a private, voluntary, opt-in basis without imposing their de novo standards on the public. Whether such further retreat into ghettoized locomotion would be positive or negative is a deeper question–one that I imagine most advocates of machmirzed buses are not troubled by. But the rest of the Jewish people should not be forcibly dragged into retreat with them.

For all those reasons, I intend to combat this fanaticism the best way I know how: by challenging the threat directly via my choice of seat on the #2 bus. Those who can’t stand it….can get their own bus.

By Daphna Berman : Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat

Talkback
Title: Weird that this womed describes herself as religious
Name: D Hirod
City: State: UK

Maybe she has her own special brand of religion – but it`s not judaism. Moreover, is it reasonable to assume that a bus-driver would place his job on the line (particularly in such difficult economic times) and not do something? These guys carry weapons with them, remember, and certainly telephone or radio contact to base and police. And only one witness? Something smells decidedly fishy here.

You are right. We must think things through. Let’s imagine witnessing this avlah just about to take place. Several men are about to spit on the face of a woman who refuses to go to the back of the bus, ready to kick and punch her, and pull off her head cover. She is ready to fight back which may bring the worst out of her. She may contact Ha’aretz, BBC, N.Y. Times, after the maaseh is over. We know this could happen because it happened and it may happen again. If I position myself in time between the woman and these fellows, I will make a fool of myself for my not being able to argue with them in rapid-fire Hebrew and I may possibly absorb some of the blows. But they won’t touch the woman and won’t disgrace her with uncovering her hair which the Gemarah calls it ervah. It is conceivable that someone may side with me which would make my task easier. After all is over, I will tell the woman that she has the right to sit anywhere she pleases, but I will plead with her to move to the back. Now, let’s examine the score. On the negative side, some will definitely regard me a fool. My ego will be bruised for several days. After all, they “won” both the verbal and physical confrontation. Some of the passengers may disapprove of my getting involved, mistakenly thinking I defend women’s right to sit in the front. On the positive side, my disgrace is considerably smaller than what the woman would suffer. I upheld gadlus haAdam. If I find the right tone and words, I may even convince this lady to sit in her designated area from now on. I stopped an avlah taking place. Also, the likelihood of the story hitting the headlines is considerably smaller. In summary, I upheld k’vod shomayim. Rabosai, wasn’t it worth it?

We choose to mingle with the incresingly-decadent society around us at our peril and at the peril of our children, who are “dropping out” at alarming rates.

To #53 Seeking Emes:
That’s my goal in this discussion, too.

Thanks for linking the Haaretz article on this incident. My conclusion, after reading it is that this lady has a credibility problem.

The organizations who are working with her read like a who’s-Who of those who seek to undermine the Jewish religion in the Holy Land: The New Israel Fund (left-wing, funded by Ford Foundation), IRAC (Reform Movement legal advocacy), JOFA (feminist association).

She is cooperating with them in bringing a case before the anti-religious Israeli Supreme Court that will outlaw all “Mehadrin” buses that provide separate setaing for men and women. This will eliminate what little Tzenius there is on the buses in Israel.

The Egged bus driver completely contradicts her version of the events and says there was no violence.

I find it very hard to believe that a truly-religious 50-year-old “grandmother,” would willingly work together with the Hellenist enemies of Yiddishkeit as provide them with ammunition for a broad attack on the Hareidi community’s attempts to protect itself from the blatant immorality that is so prevalent on the Israeli street.

To #55 L. Oberstein:
So you are ashamed to be on the same blog with me. I thought you didn’t believe in “insularity.”

I guess you are looking for a “mehadrin” blog, where only people who think exactly like you will be allowed “on the bus.!”