Comments on: Partial-Birth Distortion http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:59:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: katrina http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73430 katrina Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:31:49 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73430 you pretty much nailed it with this statement, "a line must be drawn between the concepts of "born" and 'unborn'".There are two extremes at work. There are people who think abortion at the very moment of conception is "baby-killing", like any other. And there are people who think killing a partially born baby is "abortion" like any other. Besides drawing a line between born and unborn another thing to keep in mind is born life takes precedence over unborn life.Why do we allow women to have abortions to save their lives? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life. Why do we have a mishna that states if a pregnant woman is sentenced to death she doesn't have to wait until she has given birth before being executed ? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life, even to the extent that the woman's anguish takes precedence over the life of the unborn. Making the condemned women wait a long time for her immenent death is torture. As that mishna shows, we do not torture women (born people) in the name of being "pro-life". Even if those people are criminals worthy of death--born life takes precedence over unborn life. Once we put the lives of the unborn ahead of the born chaos ensues. It is not acceptable for even one women to die from illegal abortion. Why? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life. If we believe that it's okay for a few women to die from illegal abortions because that's "nothing" compared to millions of dead unborn babies then we have to ask, "What is the exact number of dead women that the "pro-life" movement deems acceptable?". A partially born baby is halachically a born person--that's it, plain and simple, this procedure is unacceptable. I think the feminists and Hadassa are afraid this issue will be used as precedent by the "pro-life" movement to further the cause of the unborn at the expense of the born. I can't imagine why they would think that! This issue could be used as a springboard for paying attention to the born. For years we've been saying, "a wise man sees what will be born". When in fact a wise man sees what IS BORN. And our behavior to what is born (the present), affects what will be born (the future). you pretty much nailed it with this statement, “a line must be drawn between the concepts of “born” and ‘unborn’”.There are two extremes at work. There are people who think abortion at the very moment of conception is “baby-killing”, like any other. And there are people who think killing a partially born baby is “abortion” like any other. Besides drawing a line between born and unborn another thing to keep in mind is born life takes precedence over unborn life.Why do we allow women to have abortions to save their lives? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life. Why do we have a mishna that states if a pregnant woman is sentenced to death she doesn’t have to wait until she has given birth before being executed ? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life, even to the extent that the woman’s anguish takes precedence over the life of the unborn. Making the condemned women wait a long time for her immenent death is torture. As that mishna shows, we do not torture women (born people) in the name of being “pro-life”. Even if those people are criminals worthy of death–born life takes precedence over unborn life. Once we put the lives of the unborn ahead of the born chaos ensues. It is not acceptable for even one women to die from illegal abortion. Why? Because born life takes precedence over unborn life. If we believe that it’s okay for a few women to die from illegal abortions because that’s “nothing” compared to millions of dead unborn babies then we have to ask, “What is the exact number of dead women that the “pro-life” movement deems acceptable?”. A partially born baby is halachically a born person–that’s it, plain and simple, this procedure is unacceptable. I think the feminists and Hadassa are afraid this issue will be used as precedent by the “pro-life” movement to further the cause of the unborn at the expense of the born. I can’t imagine why they would think that! This issue could be used as a springboard for paying attention to the born. For years we’ve been saying, “a wise man sees what will be born”. When in fact a wise man sees what IS BORN. And our behavior to what is born (the present), affects what will be born (the future).

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73306 Bob Miller Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:09:51 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73306 There may be even some who do it or support it fully conscious that it is murder, but we have no way to know how common they are. There may be even some who do it or support it fully conscious that it is murder, but we have no way to know how common they are.

]]> By: Ori Pomerantz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73300 Ori Pomerantz Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:41:26 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73300 So, you see their lack of integrity not in abetting murder, but in being able to rationalize away such a clear case. I accept that - sorry I misunderstood you earlier. So, you see their lack of integrity not in abetting murder, but in being able to rationalize away such a clear case. I accept that - sorry I misunderstood you earlier.

]]> By: alfie http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73294 alfie Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:25:50 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73294 are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you has no intellectual integrity. that's just not fair and it is insulting. perhaps you could develop a bit more tolerance towards the opinions of others. or if you believe they are wrong - spell out in detail your proof. lacking that, your statement about intellectual integrity sounds like a cheap shot. are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you has no intellectual integrity. that’s just not fair and it is insulting. perhaps you could develop a bit more tolerance towards the opinions of others. or if you believe they are wrong - spell out in detail your proof. lacking that, your statement about intellectual integrity sounds like a cheap shot.

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73291 Bob Miller Tue, 21 Nov 2006 03:20:36 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73291 Ori asked "Are you sure they are evil rather than mistaken?" My own opinion is that most people involved have had reservations at some point, which they suppressed or explained away. If they had greater integrity, they would not have been able to rationalize something this blatant. Ori asked “Are you sure they are evil rather than mistaken?”

My own opinion is that most people involved have had reservations at some point, which they suppressed or explained away. If they had greater integrity, they would not have been able to rationalize something this blatant.

]]> By: Ori Pomerantz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73282 Ori Pomerantz Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:58:12 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73282 Bob Miller, is it truly inconceivable that pro-abortionists think that a fetus even at that point is not a person? Are you sure they are evil rather than mistaken? Bob Miller, is it truly inconceivable that pro-abortionists think that a fetus even at that point is not a person? Are you sure they are evil rather than mistaken?

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73276 Bob Miller Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:45:48 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/11/20/partial-birth-distortion/#comment-73276 People concerned about integrity would not commit or abet murder in the first place. People concerned about integrity would not commit or abet murder in the first place.

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