Is “violence” O.K. when we have to defend ourselves from people who want to trample everything we hold dear?”

Okay, this is easy: yes, because animals aren’t people; yes, because that is self-defense; and no, because attacking a person who hasn’t attacked you is assault, and is immoral. If you disagree with them — which is what this boils down to — fine: protest, speak, denounce. Express yourself. But don’t attack them.

Uh, come again?

We may not be permitted to hate the sinner in most cases, but to hate the perverted, agenda- driven and aggressive attempt to defile Jerusamem? Sinat CHINAM? Let’s address the issues within the confines of reality.

Rav Elchanan Wasserman, ZT”L, quoted his Rebbe, the Chofetz Chaim, as follows:

“We are punished, because, when we saw that the Jewish Communists, Jewish Socialists, and all other Jewish secularists declared war on G-D, we should have gone into the streets and fought them hand-to-hand with MeSiras NeFesh, just as the Maccabees fought the Hellenists in the time of the second Bais HaMikDosh.

“Instead, we were content to merely sit in our homes and synagogues and protest in a comfort–therefore, we lost our opportunity to win the war over the atheists and we are punished for our cowardly behavior.”

That is incorrect. The study only evaluated which group “felt that they were the most disliked.” Such self perception is less likely to be a result of actual “dislike” and more a result of indoctrination such as “they hate me, so I will have nothing to do with them.”

For some reason,we are not getting across the message that the Torah and Halacha tell us to condemn the sin,not the sinner and that despite our opposition to the lifestyle at issue, the Torah and Halacha demand that we treat all people with illnesses such as HIV/AIDS and that a Jew who R’L who is sick or dies from this disease is entitled to Bikur Cholim, Hespedim and Nichum Aveilim.

One issue that noone has raised yet is that there are major issues that bear consideration. For instance, until the 1970s, what we now call the “gay lifestyle” was listed in the Diagnostic and Systems Manual ( DSM), the manual for all psychologists as a mental disorder. The gay rights movement lobbied successfully for the elimination of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Today, any mental health professional who will attempt to help a gay person go straight is viewed as homophobic. Obviously, this would run contrary to our belief in free will because such a policy decision means that the APA believes that this desire is something innate to the human being, as opposed to our belief in free will. In the same vein, the documentary “Trembling Before God” can only be seen as a piece of gay rights propaganda-in which there is no discussion with the parents or siblings of the persons depicted and interviews with R A Feldman and R S Riskin largely left on the cutting room floor.

The other issue is how we as a community understand and react to parades of this nature. It is important to stress that the Torah views such behavior as a Toevah, a very strongly negative term. RYBS wrote that this type of behavior was placed near the Issurei Kilayim because they both represent the failure to stay within the order of HaShem’s Process of Creation. The Talmud also states ( Chulin 92a-b) that one of the reasons for the doom of Mitzrayim was the writing of marriage documents for same-gender relationships. IMO, we have to be able to present our case against the lifestyle in an intelligent, reasoned and emotional manner but not in a way in which we condemn individual Jews or create a Chillul HaShem by ignoring the Psak of Gdolim.

“Why should Jews, of all people, try to ignore the potency that Item 1., our tefillah has?”

Stop making sensible points, please. Quoting from our Chachamim doesn’t go over well when one is trying to bring chaos and destruction to the world.

BTW, where did they get all of those tires and did they pay for them? Its one thing to make a Chillul HaShem, I hope they aren’t guilty of theft as well.

That’s simply not true. Throwing stones at cars is a deadly threat.
Therefore, the comparison to Arabs is sadly warranted.

The violence will becomes worse, because that’s what always happens when people resort to violence. Eventually the chilonim will decide they don’t want any thugs throwing stones in the street, and things will escalate. See the recent article in the Jerusalem Post by Jorg Luyken: this time around, the police didn’t actually fight with the stone throwers, but simply came in, let the people throwing stones run away, and then beat up on innocent bystanders, in their brutal third world manner. Eventually though there will be more direct confrontations.

hp: I partly agree with you, but the same could be said the other way.

This is false.

Yet another example of Sina being generated by outsiders.

It’s very simple folks. We have two aveiros here; Gilui Arayot (as exhibited by the parade) and Sinat Chinom (as exhibited by the violent chareidim). Which aveira has caused the longest Galus???

1. Mishpacha presented both sides of the issue, with a long interview featuring Mk Avrohom Ravitz who opposed the “violence.”

2. Today’s issue of the Haaretz newspaper in Israel features an op-ed piece by an outraged supporter of the GayPride parade entitled: “Who will examine the Police.”

The gist of the piece is the accusation that the Police gave broad hints to opponents of the Parade that, if there were enough “violence,” they would have sufficient justification for cancelling the GayParade–fascinating!

The writer claims that the Hareidim took their cues from the Police, and acted accordingly.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/788019.html

1. Tefillah, in private and in public gatherings
2. Intercession with police and other officials
3. Posters, ads, radio shows, articles, blogs…
4. Appeals by sympathetic non-Jewish groups
5. Setting fire to objects in their own neighborhood, throwing other objects…

Other tactics, including large-scale passive resistance, would have been tried, too, if the march hadn’t been cancelled.

It’s presumptuous to say we can have a total understanding of the dynamics of the cancellation, but let’s think a little. Why do so many assume that Item 5., radical street theatre by misguided youth with time on their hands, against the explicit advice of the Gedolim, outweighed the other tactics? Why should Jews, of all people, try to ignore the potency that Item 1., our tefillah has?

I recall the various declarations by JDL bragging that its activities liberated Soviet Jewry—none of this was ever substantiated! All that bluster and strutting and posturing, but the real work was done by others.

I don’t think that there is anything wrong with my thinking, although I have biases, and certainly may be wrong. Worst comes to worst, I am a “centrist” regarding this issue!

As far as “liberals in Agudah”, I wasn’t aware that there were any

Actually, as I previously said, I don’t think that the point of protesting is only eliciting public sympathy. The point is to express our pain. But as far as being able to stop the parade, ultimately, it is Hashem’s city and it is not for us to tell him if it should be defiled.

I agree with this quote from Rabbi Lazer Brody:

” We have all tried every ploy we know to stop the Impurade. Once we’ve done our best, we should sit back with emuna and let Hashem run the world. Our free choice is to try and stop the parade. Apparently, for Divine reasons that we can’t understand, Hashem is deciding otherwise. Whatever Hashem does is for the very best. Sometimes, Hashem gives the evil rope so they can hang themselves with their own negative choices.”

I indeed have no idea if it is a bigger chillul Hashem to have homosexuals marching in Yerushalayim(or gathering in a stadium), or the press showing pictures which are pereived by the public as mob riots(burning trash and throwing stones). The Mesilas Yesharim states that chilul Hashem is based on people’s perception.

As far as the Mesilas Yesharim regarding “daato m’ureves im habrios” not applying to “maseh beheima”, I quote the Netziv in the preface to Bereshis regarding the Avos being Yesharim and even dealing with idolaters and those from Sedom in a civilized manner.

I have no problem saying that the charedi response on a whole was a kiddush Hashem, but I have one challenge:

I have a link to a Getty Image photo of three Yeshiva Bachurim, who were not under attack, throwing stones, as well as a picture of a policeman wounded above the eye, being carried away by another policeman and a charedei man. Would the charedi media print these pictures along with the one’s of the demonstrators being beaten? If you do not want to see such images even in the charedi media, and that is understandable, it demonstrates that the charedi response certainly needs improvement, to say the least.

What I did point out was how easily so many posters were able to condemn reactions, whilst they did not let out a cry of their own.
Holding these demonstrators at arm’s length while offering sage observations…

If the first part of some of the posts weren’t a reflection of anguished tears at the proposed defilement, if our souls didn’t instinctively react with horror, pain, and frustration, then the desensitization process has worked its Western magic all too well. A haughty comment on the disaffection Charedim may have to political engagement may win American admirers. But the stark absence of a reaction that matches the zealotry of the demonstrators originates from another realm.

Ori–I’m not a prophet, so I’m not sure what to expect. Israel is a very unpredictable place (think Amraam Mitzna running on a platform of unilateral withdrawal and getting smacked at the polls only for it to go through 2 years later). But if the ruling elite continues to ignore the interests of the large sectors of the populations and reject their reasonable demands (e.g. a referendum on the Gaza withdrawal) and at the same time blatantly trample on their homes and values and make them feel that they have no other option, then expect more violence. It is tragic and terrible but what other option does the ruling elite leave to its victims?

Ploney–I never said (if you read my post) that violence b’etzem is “sacred.” It’s a tool of last resort, no more, no less. As for your comparison to Arabs and it is unwarranted. Arabs rioting in Yerushalayim threatens Israelis everywhere. Charedim rioting in Yerushalayim don’t threaten anyone even in Yerushalayim. Even the anti-religious media hasn’t reported any cries of “yitbach chilonim.”
“But the more violent the chareidim get, the more marginalized they will be from Israeli society, and it will become more acceptable for the police to use deadly force.”
Why should they become more violent?

The Torah would not need to forbid something if there was no urge for it.

Your point is well taken. The author is involved with people who are sensitive to the issue and is trying to bring about a certain level of awareness.

Baruch Horowitz:

Well said.

I think most people would agree that if these protests had been held by Arabs, burning things and throwing stones at cars in the middle of Jerusalem, some of the rioters would have been killed (ie, October 2000). Currently, it is not acceptable to treat chareidim like that. But the more violent the chareidim get, the more marginalized they will be from Israeli society, and it will become more acceptable for the police to use deadly force.

So no, there will be no eulogies for kedushas Yerushalayim (assuming you think rioting is sacred), but, G-d forbid, if this trend continues there may well be other eulogies.

I did not see Mishpacha Magazine, but this would be a good example of what was discussed by a commentator on Rabbi Shafran’s thread(”Classified Information”) regarding the media(in this case charedi)putting its own “spin” on a particular issue. The charedi world can present the side of people who were abused by the police, but there is certainly room for expression of internal cheshbon hanefesh on the riots and frequent actions by Kannoim( independent of the parade issue), and to organize and effectively counter this attitude on a communal level.

Looking beyond the parade issue, if it is true, that Mishpocha or any other of the charedi periodicals will not accept another opinion on the issue, then as one commentator suggested in the above-mentioned piece, people should form another periodical where they can express themselves and give balance to two sides of an issue. This way, people will no longer need to say that certain issues are “swept under the carpet”.

The publication should be guided by Rabbonim, not only to prevent “askonim” from having it banned, but also to be guided by Torah wisdom, even when expressing broad and multiple views. The issue is not just balance in media, but for people to feel that they belong in the Torah community, and that their opinions count. This is not necessarily a contradiction to the authority of a broad-based Daas Torah in determining final policy in making communal decisions.

“Why a homosexual urge should be so different to the most common sexual urge of a man (married to a 60 years old woman) to commit adultery with a beautiful 25 years old woman?”

The answer is quite simple: A homosexual in most cases is unable to ever marry a woman, despite the limited success of some organizations like “Jonah”. I’m not sure how old you are, but do you think that a 60 year old couple is unable to live together??? This is not the forum to elaborate on this topic, but your comparison is obviously not valid.

If something is proven to work, we expect to see more of it. You wouldn’t mind seeing street violence to stop the homosexual pride parade or another disengagement. However, other segments of the Israeli population would resort to the same techniques for their own agendas.

Do you expect Israel to descend into civil war, or would the Palestinians make yet another tactical mistake and show Israelis why they need to be united?

Why a homosexual urge should be so different to the most common sexual urge of a man (married to a 60 years old woman) to commit adultery with a beautiful 25 years old woman?

Why don’t you also say as follows? “The frum married man lives with an adulterer nature where he has no interest in a 60 years old member of the opposite sex. Yet this individual is valiantly committed to not acting upon this nature, and steadfastly – though not easily – refuses to become an active adulterer. A great act of Mesiras Nefesh…”.

If there would be an “Adulterer Pride Parade”, would the author be concerned about the “comments and statements that will extend to deride the adulterer nature itself”?

Whatever your views on the goings on, we should have heard painful, tortured cries over the potential desceration of Yerushalayim, before laying that oh so quiet line of demarcation between sophisticated us and, sniff, violent loving others who just seem to get all carried away.

I’m not condoning violence as an abstract concept, and it’s not my place to decide on what is appropriate reaction. But Yidden, why didn’t you let out a painful horrified cry, to preface all the aloof and intellectual posting? Is this academia, or your own Yerushalayim?? The reactions of many were very revealing, and no, not revealing of an admirable position regarding violence renunciation.