But there is really no excuse for brutishness against ordinary Arabs in settings such as security checkpoints. If policemen have behaved indecently there using the same kind of thuggish superiority-by-uniform that they employ against Israeli Jews it’s a phenomenon that should be stopped. There’s no need for brutality that serves no security purpose. And Israel’s dire security situation is not an excuse for caving into natural battlefield temptations towards inhumanity. We really do have to be better than that.

If a post began “given the recent charedi stone-throwing” this would be acceptable, even though only a tiny minority engage in it. Nothing the charedim did is “terroristic” which is why Ch”L’s attempt to create a parallel is a non-sequitur.

Ch”L is right to the extent that one in chareidi “uniform” who misbehaves does cause a Chilul HaShem — but one should not magnify it inaccurately by saying that “chareidim” behave that way. When it comes to the police, however, there is an endemic problem: police in uniform represent their police force, and those within the Israeli police who behave barbarically are not being punished but rather promoted.

And, in the end, Hillel has a point. When Palestinian Arab women speak about needless abusive behavior and humiliation at checkpoints, what I saw with my own eyes does make me look at those stories with far more willingness to accept them as true than may perhaps be warranted. Yes, those checkpoints are needed. Yes, potential terrorists need to be interrogated, even roughly. But there’s no excuse for a Jew to be reduced to a barbarian, even when faced by barbarians.

That applies both to the police, and to the Meah Shearim demonstrators — the most perceptive comments I’ve seen referred to the need for non-violent civil disobedience.

Of course I would never make such a generalization, but I’m truly surprised that R. Menken allowed this through.

Nevertheless, I’d like to address a couple of issues in Hillel’s post.

First abusing the Nazi metaphor in this way is a gross insult to the kedoshim of the Holocaust.

Second, whether the Arabs have a point or not is irrellevent. The soldiers who operate in Palestinian neighborhoods are doing what they do to save innocent lives. Nothing about what we are forced to do visa-vis the Palestinians is pleasant, but our lives are on the line. Believe me there has been a heck of a lot of abuse of Moslems in the past 5 years by US forces to prevent another 9/11. And you people wouldn’t have it any other way.

Furthermore, there is not a whole lot that can be done by so frequently publicizing the police behaviour on this blog other that to have, as one of the posters mentioned, a “maragel” affect, i.e. by publicizing loshon hora about Eretz Yisroel the already negative attitudes toward living here by many in the Chareidi community are just being reinforced. Whereas, placing more emphasis on the issue of Chareidi lawlessness, if done properly with the intent of working on a solution, has much more of a “toeles”.

Also, in terms of relative importance, the issue of police lawlessness pales in comparison to the sinas chinam that is being generated by Chareidi lawlessness.

The provacateur claims are nonsense and illogical. The police, the government, Martians (whoever you people think are behind this “conspiracy”) have nothing to gain in this case. Unless you think they’re doing it just so they can get their jollies beating up Chareidim, but then according to many people here the police don’t really need an excuse to do that.

May I add a little food for thought here.

It ocurred to me that the violence on the part of some hotheads may be an unverbalized response to pervasive Government violence.

What I mean is this: When a small group of Supreme Court oligarchs decree that an ugly abomination, like a Gay parade should be forced on the hareidi public (and on non-hareidi publics) at gunpoint (an unprecedented 12,000 police and border patrolmen), that is a form of violence that dwarfs the rock-throwing by unruly teenagers.

As Newton establish inhis well-known law of Physics: “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”

“let’s also acknowledge that the wrongdoing of a certain gang is simply non sequitur to the Israel police’s habitual malfeasance and unprofessionalism…”

The provocateurs is certainly an aspect to consider, but as Ahron stated, one has nothing to do with another. It is time that we take responsibility for excesses of the “charedi street”, even if their actions are condemned by leadership and do not reflect the essence of the goodness and extrordinary kindness of the vast majority of the charedi community.

The circulation of pictures from Getty Images of teenagers throwing rocks distorts our image, and is a desecration of God’s name of cosmic proportion, to use the phrase of the Noverminsker Rebbe regarding a different incident. While the situations are certainly not analogous, if we don’t all come together to ostracize such behavior and see how we can prevent it, the perception in the secular world is that we are putting ourselves in the company of those in the Moslem or in the Black communities who cover up for their own. Chilul Hashem is judged based on perception, according to the Mesilas Yesharim.

I am not convinced that we have done all that we can to stop the fringe elements from putting us to shame. I would also consider the possibility that Hashem considers the damage caused by one picture from Getty Images of rock-throwers to be worse than the defilement to Jerusalem caused by the homosexual marchers.

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2006/11/the_sanctity_of.html

Thanks a lot R’ Bob, I was itchin’ to write that exact statement, but you beat me to it by approximatly 9 hours.

But I will add one unique thought. I strongly suspect that a large portion of the Kanoiyish activity is in actuality the doings of these rouge provocateurs. While I have no proof, I will rely on R’ Ya’akov’s statement, with which I wholeheartedly agree, that the burden of proof rests solely on the corrupt police and the related corrupt gov’t institutions.

Now that we’ve addressed the issue of Chareidi society’s own segment of brigands and bullies (and we would do well to acknowledge their identity as bullies, not kannoim), let’s also acknowledge that the wrongdoing of a certain gang is simply non sequitur to the Israel police’s habitual malfeasance and unprofessionalism….just as the brutality of Israeli organized crime gangs is non sequitur to the problem of Israeli police brutality. The issues are separate and should not be conflated. (Nor should rock assaults be conflated in any way with civil disobedience–the two are as different from each other as day from night). At the very least, let’s remember our competitive efforts at chewing gum while walking–there’s no reason why rejection of one lawless element should weaken our rejection of its opposing lawless element as well.

(As for solutions: yes there should be a nonstop stream, nay flood, of American orthodox Jews moving to Israel (bringing themselves and their standards of competent governance and security from police assault). Of course that would require awareness and caring on a large scale. And I hate to quote myself, but for a more rapidly attainable proposal see here.)

Only a massive Kiddush HaShem in which we state via Tefilah and Tehilim with real tears that we are (1)appalled by the (1) the deliberate choice of Ir HaKodesh for this march (2) proclaim that Ir HaKodesh is not San Francisco, Soho or the West Village and (3) emphasize by an absence of any banners, etc that tefillah bes tzrah -”zu haderech.” Anything less will allow images of a massive Chillul HaShem to remain instead of what can still be a tremendous Kiddush HaShem.

“the stone-throwing on the Ramot Road did more to temper the first wave of the teshuva movement in Israel than anything else, as the entire hareidi community became associated in the public mind with te stone throwers.”

We need to look at the long-term picture.

http://www.jewishmediaresources.org/article/531/

“…Having said that, don’t we, too, need to undergo a cheshbon hanefesh? Whose insane idea was the rock throwing anyway? Step back and think about it. Two generations of young charedi men threw rocks to impress secular Jews about the kedusha of Shabbos or to enforce its observance? Why in the world did we ever allow a fringe element to frame this debate and why did we not forcefully and repeatedly distance ourselves from the violent actions of those who shamed us so? I am not discussing the somber and proper expressions of public and respectful protest at the pain of public chillul Shabbos sanctioned by our Gedolim. We are discussing the lawlessness and desecration of Hashem’s name that took place in the guise of promoting Shabbos observance… “

That having been said, I am pained by responses as has been reported in the media(stone throwing, trash burning). There is also talk of the “Pulsa Denehuara” curse; while I don’t like the latter, it is not my place to tell those who do it what to do.

While leadership strongly condemns violence, one can not control all Kannoim(zealots) when there is civil disobedience. When the parade issue is over, we need to give thought to see if the entire community acting in unity can effectively ostracize Kannoim in Ramat Beis Shemesh and elsewhere, instead of merely engaging in Monday-morning PR.

There was an article in Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society about the obligation to demonstrate and protest in general. The issue in this case is what does Hashem want from us: some will say a Tehillim counter-rally to express our pain is enough, and we do not have to play G-d in preventing the parade.

Others will say that if we don’t engage in civil disobedience like blocking streets, Hashem will kill innocent people, G-d forbid. According to the latter, the fact that some Kannoim will not listen to leadership’s call against damage, is an inevitable consequence of our action. On the other hand, others may feel that the Chilul Hashem, and the hatred towards Torah and charedim resulting from negative press coverage(I’ve seen this on the blogs) is worse than the Gay parade defiling Yerushalaim.

It is not my place to agree or disagree with Eida Hachardis or others’ decisions; I am merely analyzing both sides. Either way, charedim are held guilty by association for tolerating zealots. I would like to see this issue brought up for discussion at the Agudah convention and at forums of other groups.

Steve, there is now a call for a tefillah rally at the kotel and/or on the har habayit for Thursday. That is the appropriate response. Halevi were it only a “few” kanoim burning garbage cans. Chareidim have been engaging in violent behaviour including stoning police, busses, and cars.

Bob, the solution is for you all to move here. There are something like 400-500 thousand orthodox Jews in the US. If just half of them came it would make a huge difference in the political environment.

R Menken, yes police can be abusive, maybe more so here, but that’s dog bites man. You regularly post these types of stories to an audience that is largely in agreement with your orientation. What’s the chidush? In most of these cases the catalyst is the behaviour of ostensibly Torah Observant Jews in a way that is a chilul Hashem and anti-Torah values. That’s man bites dog, that’s the chidush, and that’s what IMHO you should be challenging your audience to find a solution for.