It, at times, can be very unclear who the demander is, and who the demandee is, if you get my drift.

I do not believe in distorting Torah for PR or outreach purposes. Nevertheless, as is apparent from the story which lead up to Rav Malkiel Kotler’s public statement, certain things indeed need to be “emphasized” in our generation. A person writing a sefer or giving a speech regarding the Torah view on non-Jews, while well-meaning, may indeed “emphasize” kabbalistic or other obscure sources or present an unbalanced overall picture on the topic. Unfortunately, the media then picks up on the unbalanced aspects.

Regarding women’s role in Judaism, there have been distortions by the media. Rabbi Menken will remember his 1994 Mail Jewish post regarding a distortion which was presented concerning the Rambam in Hilchos Ishus. I heard a recording of a lecture by a MO rebbetzin, that she came late to schul to avoid hearing “shlo asani isha”, because it was too painful for her. At least at one point in her life, the wife of the Netziv, struggled with the latter type of issue, according to her nephew. True, the majority of Orthodox women certainly feel fulfilled in their role, but what do you say to someone who is not?

I think that one can quote any “negative” source about non-Jews or women while still providing balance. Hashem is a merciful God, and the purpose of His creation was to bestow good(Ramchal in Derech Hasem). That is why he created all human beings in a Divine image, although there are different levels to everyone’s souls, in accordance to their specific role and task. This is well within normative Jewish thinking.

Also, I think that there certainly may be more than one acceptable opinion on this subject(I hope this doesn’t make me a “Centrist” ). As Rabbi Alfred Cohen has written in “Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society” :

…Most importantly, I think it is time we remembered that Judaism has never demanded a unitary view; dissent and open discussion have always characterized Jewish scholarship. Disagreeing with someone is not heresy, nor even rejection of Daat Torah…

Abarbenel says the same.
Note that the same ambigiuity in the posuk (btzelem elokim bara oso, zachar u’nekeyva etc) is the source of the drasha that adam was created androgynous and then split, implying that both are b’tzelem elokim and halves of the same whole.

One of the baalei tosfos say so (it’s a diyuk on b’tzelem elokim bara oso) and I think there’s another I am not remembering offhand. There are also rishonim who do see women as created btzelem elokim who read the Creation story as implying that women are on a lower spiritual level. To go back to an earlier comment of yours:

“However, assuming that you are correct that the only acceptable Torah view is that men are born inherently on a higher spiritual level than women,”

however you view male or female essential nature, in this world, our metric is mitzvos, and we accord greater spirituality or spiritual potential to those with more mitzvos.

“Also, there is a source that male and female, and their souls, were originally created as one unit.”

It’s a midrash but I’m not aware that it says or implies anything about their souls.

“My approach is nether apologetic nor is it not desirous of Mitzvos.”

i was directing that at the earlier comment (not yours) that women are more spiritual and religious and therefore “need” fewer mitzvos.

I agree with the rest of your point (though I’m not familiar with the movie or the other discussions) and you’re right about appropriate sources for appropriate forums. The bulk of the tradition is like RYBS.
The difficulty is when people go further, and start insisting that women have fewer mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual level - that is a distortion and brings out every source to the contrary, including the obscure, because even the mainstream sources are tinged with apologetics (can we really call one of the baalei hatosfos libelous?). I can only speak for myself, but the reason I wrote in is that it’s important not to distort in the opposite direction, and in my view, it’s inappropriate to treat mitzvos as things that some people are too superior to “need.” No one would dream of saying such a thing about eg kehuna — or perhaps they would, if there were a movement of “yisraelism”? Regardless, the distinction between kohen and yisrael is instructive, and ought to remind folk to keep such matters in perspective, as there is ample room for all to achieve zchusim.

Question: why then is there such a paucity of female spiritual and religious leaders? (Can you name more than five?)

Answer: there are no official religious positions available for women in mainstream Orthodoxy, even in non-ritual positions are mostly discouraged (president of the shul??)

Implication: since Judaism is exclusively male-centric vis a vis religious authority, we must then be only accepting second best!

Rabbi Joseph Ber Soloveitchik:

“Even as the Jew is moved by his private Sinaitic Covenant with God to embody and preserve the teachings of the Torah, he is committed to the belief that *all mankind, of whatever color or creed, is “in His image” and is possessed of an inherent human dignity and worthiness.* Man’s singularity is derived from the breath “He [God] breathed into his nostrils at the moment of creation” (Genesis 2:7). Thus, we do share in the universal historical experience, and God’s providential concern does embrace all of humanity.” ((Man of Faith in the Modern World, p. 74)

Rabbi Malkiel Kotler:

“Our philosophy asserts that *every human being is created in the image of the Lord* and the primacy of integrity and honesty in all dealings without exception. I strongly repudiate any assertions in the name of Judaism that do not represent and reflect this philosophy.”

Please list such Rishonim that women are not created btzelem elokim. Also, there is a source that male and female, and their souls, were originally created as one unit.

As I said, the simple meaning of the Mishnah is that both Jew and non-Jew, male and female, are created in the Divine image. While I have no “shaychos” to Kabbalah, I do know that our understanding of Hashem’s presence is expressed in both “male” and “female” terms(Chachma is considered male, and Binah is female).

While this I think is meant as a an analogy, I would add the Shelah, R’ Yosef Bloch and R’ Gifter say that our universe is meant as an “parable” to express spiritual terms(see R. Gifter’s preface to Artscroll Shir Hashirim). So it would seem to be ironic, that it is “not clear” that a women is created in Divine image.

“The bracha of she’asani kirtzono is meant to emphasize the desirablity of mitzvos, and the apologetics that have grown around it and grown around this issue, while well-intentioned, denigrate mitzvos. We are supposed to be desirous of mitzvos, not to consider ourselves “above” those we aren’t obligated in.”

“Mpi olim v’yonkim yisadita oz”–sometimes the simple things we learn as children are correct. I saw a frum book for children which began to the effect: every human being created is deemed special by G-d. As a Jewish person, you are born with a special gift of love…

My approach is nether apologetic nor is it not desirous of Mitzvos. We are talking about “tzelem”, and I think the Maharal defines chilul Hashem as being “m’maet es hadmus”. There is no question that the media PR surrounding a movie recently produced as well as other incidents relating to these sensitive topics not expressed in a nuanced way, created, and continue to create(as we speak, there is a discussion elsewhere on the internet about this) a most appalling chilul Hashem, hamievin yavin. There are also distortions about the Orthodox approach to women in the media as well. We should emphasize sources, and they most emphatically exist as Rav Soleveitchik Zt’l and others have stated, that lead to an increase in Kovod Hatorah.

He’s talking about kedushas am yisrael iirc, not relevant to our topic. I don’t think that anyone here is suggesting that women aren’t full members of klal yisrael.

“According to R. Mayer Twerski(“Torah Perspectives on Women’s Issues”):
“The Torah values men and women equally. “And the Almighty created Man in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.” The Torah is emphatic: man and woman alike are created in God’s image, which is the source of their majesty and places them at the pinnacle of creation. Therefore, taught Rav Soloveitchik zt”l, men and women are endowed with equal ontological-spiritual worth” ”

The torah is clearly not that emphatic about it, because there are rishonim who go so far as to say that women are not created b’tzelem elokim, and you don’t have to go further than your mikraos gedolos to find rishonim who read the story of woman’s creation as indicating that women are less spiritual than men. These views don’t seem to dominate, but the point here is that even something as minimal as women being created bt’zelem elokim is not clear (b’tzelem elokim bara oso), let alone some of the other claims being made here .

The bracha of she’asani kirtzono is meant to emphasize the desirablity of mitzvos, and the apologetics that have grown around it and grown around this issue, while well-intentioned, denigrate mitzvos. We are supposed to be desirous of mitzvos, not to consider ourselves “above” those we aren’t obligated in.

Mrs. Katz:
My impression is different.

Please list the sources here or on mishmar.blogspot.com when you have a chance, so people can see them.

How do the sources understand “beloved is man for he was created in the image of G-d” ? If men and women are both beloved, what is the point in emphasizing that either gender is more spiritual?

I believe as well in some type of partial egalitarianism towards non-Jews as well. I think, for example, that it might be possible to reconcile the mekkubalim and the balei pshat’s understanding of the aforementioned Mishna in Avos.

There is no need to be apologetic. Each religion believes that its adherents are the best. There are rewards and obligations for being Jewish. And Hashem does love the Jewish people the most. But when we discourage a proselyte and tell him that G-d wants you to fulfill your role in this world, we don’t tell him that you are not important in your Creator’s eyes.

One reason why I am sensitive to and emphasize this, is because I have seen the chilul Hashem caused by people who do not express these ideas with enough sensitivity. One sincere person on a few “Centrist” blogs, points to this issue without fail. And I am not even talking about the hundreds of hate sites which monitor the Talmud or our media for “racist” statements (according to Wikepedia), or the extreme anti-charedi smear-blogs out there. Similarly, we would not want to perpetuate a myth that Judaism devalues women. One can understand the “hierarchal” sources, whether between genders or between Jew and gentile in a nuanced way.

Approbations on books that later turn out to have serious Hashkafic problems are supposed to be the exception, not the norm! How many of the teachers whom you pressed, who “sheepishly admitted” that they couldn’t remember where they picked up on this bizarre idea, thereafter ceased teaching it? Did you ask the Gedolim if they know who said it first, or whether it was a valid Hashkafah?

You insisted that there should be a “correction.” I said no, there’s enough support for this school of thought to justify my statement that “men are inherently less spiritual and religious than women” — not discussing what men can achieve, or even how important they might be in G-d’s eyes, but how pointed in the right direction they might be at birth.

You attacked my statement again, and claim I’m the one being “persistent,” so I’ll stop here.

I find this statement rather shocking, and that’s being generous. If you have another opinion to base your statement on it, please do so. I suggested a Maharal, and some have suggested other sources to the contrary. Do you have a different way to understand these sources? One can easily parry ANY proof for any position with your statement above - trust me, I see it on the “Centrist” blogs all the time.

Furthermore, I went out of my way to quote the passage from the book where he attests that he asked many gedolim if such a source exists, and they all replied in the negative. What exactly would you make of this? I can personally attest that I too went on a similar quest, and have never been shown a source for your statement - including from seminary teachers that sheepishly admitted that they nevertheless had been teaching this for years. If such a source really does exist, it must be fairly obscure.

Frankly, I’m quite confused by your persistance here.

“Since both Mordechai and Jak referred to the Maharal I brought it up with our local expert—Rav Adlerstein suggested a passage in his Drush al haTorah in which he says that women are closer to Olam HaBah.”

Yes, I’m aware of that Maharal. He actually says that they are more shayach to the World to Come, and I’m sure that Rav Adlerstein will confirm that this statement does not contradict the one I quoted.

Finally, you’ll note that I did not suggest any counter explainations as to why men, practically speaking, seem to have a more different time staying “in line” than women. There are many possible reasons. The Maharal you cited is one - men are by nature more at movement than women. They are the doers. But this is all really beside the point. Are you suggesting that we attempt to build Torah hashkafa based on phenomena we see in the world? Wouldn’t it be more safe if we look to the Torah itself for our hashkafa, and only afterward attempt to examine the world through the glasses of the Torah?

Meanwhile it is the women who kept Israel alive in Mitzrayim, the women who refused to participate in the Chet Ha’Eygel (Golden Calf), the wife of On ben Peles who saved him from Korach’s rebellion, and the list goes on. And today, it’s a sociological reality that is visible to everyone.

Men say the blessing “who has not made me a woman” in the morning. Why are these three blessings — who has not made me a gentile, a servant, or a woman — stated in the negative? One explanation is that we recognize the great opportunity given by additional Mitzvos, but also recognize our failure to utilize the opportunity properly. Meanwhile, women say “who has made me in accordance with His will,” language identical to the description of the world found at the beginning of Kaddish.

With all respect to Yisrael ben Reuven and the scholarship that went into his book, I don’t believe his opinion constitutes the last or only word on this matter. Since both Mordechai and Jak referred to the Maharal I brought it up with our local expert — Rav Adlerstein suggested a passage in his Drush al haTorah in which he says that women are closer to Olam HaBah. He also said that understanding all of the Maharal’s statements together might be the subject of a 500-page book.

Kar, I didn’t say anything about Kohanim vs. Yisroelim; I would agree that the Kohen can achieve greater spiritual heights due to his additional Mitzvos, but neither believe nor said that one with greater Mitzvah requirements is necessarily inherently inferior. There are other equally obvious counter-examples.

Concerning the shoteh, however, I will retell the following story. A man once brought his severely impaired daughter to the Chazon Ish, who, to the consternation of the father, rose in her presence. The Chazon Ish explained that it was obvious that her neshamah had achieved most everything possible for it, since it was placed in a body with such limited capacities. Thus we see that reduced obligations in Mitzvos can indicate a higher spiritual state, and also that the one with greater obligations can achieve much more as a result.

As I stated, I believed that at least at first glance, that it is a valid Torah position to say that men and women are inherently equally spiritual, in different ways, even taking into consideration the Gemara of Horiyos 13a. Potential for more types of mitzvos would not contradict that ” men and women are endowed with equal ontological-spiritual worth”(see comment #22). I have not seen the sources that you mentioned in “Male and Female, He Created Them”.

Also, can someone quote precisely the Iggros Moshe which states to the effect that the Torah “equates men and women whenever it discusses holiness”?

However, assuming that you are correct that the only acceptable Torah view is that men are born inherently on a higher spiritual level than women, then I would say that the ultimate understanding is beyond us and involves metaphysics and the secrets of creation. One can still present an egalitarian position without distorting the Torah.

Human beings do not understand exactly what the mystical concept of tzimtzum(constriction) means, and why G-d created matter in different ways. Why is some matter made into a rock and some into snakes? Why did Hashem want some human beings to be endowed with a Jewish soul, and some without? Why were some people born male and some female?

If some people are created inherently less spiritual, it simply means that they have more to perfect, or that they have different roles to play in the Divine plan. This would also be true according to sources which discuss how one’s ancestor’s create spiritual genes for descendents(e.g., Ruach Chaim and Ramban on the Avos, and the story of Chafetz Chaim and R. Schwab regarding why the former was born a Kohen).

Until that time, learning was confined to a very small elite. There was just no way of supporting mass learning. Boys went to cheder until they were 9 or 10 and then they went to work. That is, unless their fathers were rich, they came from rabbinnical families, or they had an iron will, a fierce desire to learn and a good head.”

I have to disagree. When I was in yeshiva (Ohr Somayach) the Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Mendel Weinbach, received a set of shas saved from the war as a gift to the yeshiva. Inscribed in the front cover was the name of the owners (which I saw with my own eyes): the woodworkers union of a small town in Poland. Apparently these “elites” would learn daily in their shul.

It is quite possible that in the days of the Talmud, when child rearing was very different, that was not the case. Part of the point of having Oral Torah is to be able to fit the timeless Torah to a generation’s specific environment (see http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-624.html).