Rav Sheftel Neuberger shlit”a reminded me last week of a dramatic episode recounted by Rav Shalom Schwadron, zt”l, the famed Magid of Yerushalayim. Those of us who had the privilege of once listening to him in person will have no trouble imagining him standing among us, and throwing out the punch line in his deep, gravely voice. (The story does not appear in any of Rav Pesach Krohn’s books, at least according to the recollection of his rebbetzin. Several others I spoke to, however, recall the story attributed to the Magid.)
Some people will not be satisfied without Cross-Currents enmeshing itself in every current controversy. They will not be satisfied with this piece. Others, hopefully, will find something in this tale to slake their curiosity, while still meeting the extra demands upon us during this week of Teshuva.
The war years – WWI that is – were the worst for the poor of Jerusalem. Much of the community subsisted on meager charitable contributions from European Jews. Most of those funds were choked off as the Allies fought the Axis, which included the Ottoman empire that had long controlled the Holy Land.
A poor couple sent a young child to the grocery store with a few coins for some basic supplies. Whem returned with them, plus some change, his parents realized that somehow he had taken a valuable gold coin that they had been saving as their next egg. They immediately ran to the grocer and explained. He denied ever receiving such a coin. The parents knew that he must have received it, and pushed their case. The grocer remained adamant, and passions grew.
There were charges and counter-charges, and batei-din (Jewish law panels) convened to consider them. The case became the talk of the town, and each side had its army of supporters. Nothing was resolved, but acrimony remained in ample measure.
Ten years later, a newcomer to Jerusalem sought out the grocer, and the parents. He could explain it all. He had lived in Jerusalem at the time, and had no food to offer his young family. When he saw a child walking in the street with a gold coin, he could not resist the temptation. He found a way to distract the child, and exchange another coin for the golden one.
Rav Schwadron then took charge of the story’s application. “By now, all the protagonists in the story have gone over to the Olam HaEmes (the World of Truth). Would you like to know where they all are? I will tell you. The grocer is in Gan Eden (Paradise). He was, after all, entirely blameless. His subsequent actions against his accusers were understandable, even if not perfect. The parents are there too. They were not unjustified in suspecting the grocer of theft. They were wrong, but not unreasonable. Even the thief is in Gan Eden. His repentance was long, thorough, and heart-felt.
“But there were others involved – all those who joined the fracas, who took sides in a dispute that was not really their concern. You want to know where they are? They all went to Gehinom (hell)!”
A pause, and many more decibels applied to the final line: “And they will never get out!”
Perhaps, on second thought, this is all the response that is necessary.
Fantastic story- very frightening!
But is it okay to try to be melamed Zchuss for the butcher by counter acting everyones statements by saying that he might have some form of mental illness so he’s not accountable for what he’s done?
Also, someone told me that if someone causes the rabim to sin, then isn’t one allowed to talk about what he did?
Rabbi Adlerstein,
There is no question that one must be vigilant not to gossip gratuitously about any scandal, but your comparison is strange indeed.
A private dispute over a coin is not a legitimate public concern. As much as a grocer serves a wider public, as long as he agrees to address the dispute through the proper channels there is no moral justification whatsoever to thrash the matter out in the public square.
The Monsey poultry and meat scandal, by account of the Rabbonim involved, in terms of the population affected (people in Israel who had received meat from their parents had to kasher their pots) and the potential time-span (the Rav Hamachshir said that anyone who cooked the affected meat in the last 10 years had to kasher their keilim), is without exaggeration, the most far-reaching and unprecedented breach of kashrus in Jewish history. That is most certainly a legitimate and vital public concern.
The fact that the butcher involved was a highly respected member of his community, deepens the breach of public trust, and also deserves public comment.
There is much that should be, ought to be and needs to be said without transgressing any of the laws of loshon hora.
[...] Read this article from Yitzchok Adlerstein of Cross Currents [...]
Is there anyone in Monsey who is not involved? We all ate the treif meat, and most treifed up their kitchens with it. How does this make us take sides that are not our concern?
There is one fundamental difference in the situations: kashrus is a community issue that affects everyone, versus this story of simple theft. I understand the implied point of your story, but “let’s not talk about what happened” isn’t a valid response if we want to keep it from happening around here – unless you’re somehow trying to imply that this entire incident didn’t happen, which would be straight at odds with the actions (as I understand them) of the rabbanim in Monsey.
Certainly, we can stray away from accusing specific folks of things, and concentrate on the issues that would allow these problems to happen, but this is the most major kashrus scandal I’ve been made aware of in the entire time since I’ve been observant. Sweeping it under the rug isn’t the answer.
-DMZ
Rabbi Adlerstien,
Great story. However, blogs, in general, increase machlokes. Not diminish it.
The analogy only works if the Monsey situation was strictly about one individual’s wrongdoing. If there are systemic problems to correct, the matter really is a valid concern for others (at least others who could correct such problems, in Monsey or elsewhere).
Eternal gehinom in Judaism? Intresante.
Rabbi Betzallel Rudinsky shlita of Monsey, remarked that the sin of Lashon Hora regarding this inyan was worse than any of the treifos that may have been eaten because for eating traif, especially unknowingly, repentance and Yom Kippur are mechaper (atone). But, there is no such atonement for all the Lashon Hora spoken.
Yasher Koach, I can’t think of a better story with which to greet Yom Kippur. Gemar Chasima Tova.
Reb Yitzchak:
What has theft got to do with Kashrus?
We all HAVE to get involved in a kashrus scam situation to prevent further problems!
From a survey reported on in Today’s on-line Jerusalem Post:
Although most rabbis agreed that people have a right to attain knowledge, many differences were found over whether rabbis agreed with the principle `to a great extent’ or a `very great extent’.
Ninety percent of Reform and Conservative rabbis, 77% of national religious, 45% of national haredi, and 41% of haredi rabbis `agreed to a great extent’ or `agreed to a very great extent’ with the principle of a right to information.
Place of birth seemed to have an effect on the views of Israeli rabbis.
Rabbis from all religious streams born in English-speaking countries (83%) and those born in Israel (61%) `agreed to great extent’ or `agreed to a very great extent’ with the principle of the right to know in contrast to rabbis born in eastern Europe (39%) and in Arab countries (17%).
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A thought experiment – would the Rabbinic leadership have made use of the gizmo used in men in black to have the community forget the incident, after kashering etc ?If yes, why? If not, why not?
GCT
You know, this isn’t the first time I’ve heard claims of “mental illness.” One person I know who was hearing the story for the first time immediately suggested it as a cause.
Why do we have such difficulty in accepting that Orthodox Jews can simply be as crooked or evil as the next man? Accusations of “lashon hara” or “needless machlokes” point to the same mindset.
i believe the story is in the famous book – Yerushlalyim Shel Maala – The Heavenly City.
I was wondering when you would get around to this story. I have nothing to add. I hope that everyone will learn from this and that major improvements will be made in kashrus supervision. I feel sorry for the truly religious Jews who ate non kosher . This must bother them more than the monetary loss. May the New Year be one without chilul Hashem.
People who sin against the AlMighty are, by definition, mentally ill.
Rav Yosef Yozel, Der “Alter” of Novardhok, used to say “Everyone who comes into my Yeshiva is mentally ill. My job here is to change them sane and normal people.”
Perhaps the best comment on this tragedy is the September 7th letter from the community that provided Kashrus supervision to the butcher. I reproduce the letter verbatim below omitting only identifying names, replacing them with ellipses:
September 7th ‘06, Ellul 14 5766
Dear Member, Mispallel and all those who use our Shul,
A terrible tragedy has befallen us, and the entire Monsey community.
… Kashrus supervision under our esteemed Rav Shlit”a, was always noted for its meticulous and unbending strict adherence to Halocho as well as mostly daily inspections by an expert Mashgiach, and as such, enjoyed the trust of the entire community. It cannot be overemphasized that the basic element in Kashrus supervision is the integrity of the owner of the establishment. In consonance with that principle, hasgocho was only granted to those who exhibited superior standards of ehrlichkeit and Yiras Shomayim. If we can’t fully trust the owner, supervision is denied.
We were all stunned by the gravity of the acts of one who was perceived in our midst as an avid klal worker, and had a reputation as a Shomer Torah Umitzvos. The trust that we placed on the owner of … which was under our supervision, was secretly betrayed. It was thus possible to circumvent and undermine our kashrus efforts at that establishment, to the point where non Kosher products were secretly introduced and sold.
After deliberation of the issues involved Rav … Shlit”a
- removed the Kashrus Hashgocho from the establishment
- outlined the halachic status and requirements of the purchased meat products and utensils used in their preparation (see attached sheet)
- will deliver a shiur scheduled for Motzoei Shabbos 10 pm to further explain the details. (men and women invited)
Our Rav Shlit”a also directed that the following steps be implemented.
- Kashering will take place at … (Revised) on Friday Ellul 15, September 8th, 1 to 4 PM and Sunday Ellul 17, September 10th, 10 am to 2 pm
- Sunday Ellul 24, the first day of Selichos, is designated as a Fast day for our community. Following Mincha (with Fast Day Torah reading) we will hear words of inspiration from our Rav and invited guests. Details to follow.
- Congregation … will cease to provide Kashrus supervision at this time.
May Hashem grant that we never know of such a breach again,
Wishing a kesiva vachasima tova for us and all Israel,
… for the Board of Trustees
I find it amazing how many people actually are looking for heterim to speak about this subject, I find the response to this article a fascinating subject for discussion, which standing alone says an awful lot about us as a group. To what educational system should some of these attitudes be attributed?
Wrong. This kind of thing happens regularly. One such occurance was about 25 years ago in the Washington, DC area. The frum owner of a respected caterer was caught, and gleefully said that he had been serving treife meats to the Jewish community for over forty years.
As long as the various Kashrus Organizations refuse to have a mashgiach tmidi in a store, just because the owner is frum, it will continue to happen.
There is a story about this:
Once there was a Chassid who was a wealthy business man. But, in addition to his business acumen, he had a rare talent for rendering goose fat. Every year, he would render barrels of goose fat that would be used by his family and friends who would come over to his house and borrow some goose fat. Because of his good fortune, every year, when he went to visit his Rebbe, he would bring two barrels of goose fat for his Rebbe, who would enthusiatically thank him, and give him a brocha (blessing) for continued success.
After many years, the Chassid’s business took a down-turn. Still, each year he would bring two barrels of goose-fat to his Rebbe.
Finally, things were so bad, financially, that someone gave him some advice. “Look,” the friend said, “You’re talented. You can render delicious goose fat. Many people would pay for that goose fat.” So, that is what the business man did. He began to sell the goose fat.
That year, he brought the customary two barrels of goose fat to his Rebbe. But, his Rebbe looked puzzled. “What’s wrong, Rebbe,” he asked. “Where’s the hechsher?” answered the Rebbe. The man then asked, “I’m sorry, Rebbe, but I don’t understand. You’ve been taking the goose fat that I render for all these years, without a hechsher. Why do you suddenly need one?” “Ahhh,” answered the Rebbe, “But now, it’s your business.”
To my mind, any hechsher that depends upon the religiosity of the owner is equivalent to no hechsher at all.
Hillel, that may be true from a hashkafic perspective. But let’s be practical here: Crooks are out to make money, and by using words like “metal illness,” we’re finding excuses (and burying our heads in the sand) for terrible aveiros that should not be excused if any progress is to be made.
I think that one needs to balance the feelings of the individual’s family and the healthy need for communual discussion.
If one is not a Beis Din, it is not one’s place to demonize the person involved. As terrible as the betrayal is, Chazal tell us not to judge a person until we are in their exact place. Also, this person has a family; it is a tragedy in many ways, and not a excuse for gossip.
One the other hand, this is something which affects people. Many people may have an opinion and thoughts on matters indirectly related. For example, I think that one lesson would be to focus on how ideally we should have Achdus(unity) in Kashrus. The fact that even a community that is yarei v’shaleim can be nichshal, may show that “hanistaros l’Hashem Elokeinu”. Maybe the time has come to reconsider whether we really need four different hashgachos on a single wine bottle, and also why “modern” and “heimshe” hashgachos can’t come together to give one certification on a bottle of soda. It may be impractical, and be irrelevant to the Monsey story, but it is a thought. Is expressing this Lashon Hara?
In general, there are risks in not having any forum for discussion. One might make a good argument that “sweeping things under the carpet”, and not allowing people expression has lead to chillul Hashem, because it will come out in other ways.
The fact is, that the Frum community like any community is not perfect. We should not pretend that there are not Orthodox people in jail, or that it is a “shande” to focus, as a community, on alcohol or molestation–every community has these issues, and having the Torah doesn’t mean that we are perfect. To say that the askonim or established organizations should have a monopoly on solving these issues may also not be the answer.
Obviously, there is a proper forum and means of expression. I don’t know exactly what it is, but I don’t think that we should go to the other extreme and say that people are not allowed at all, in any way and in any forum, to talk about events affecting the Tzibbur.
“All the response that is necessary.” Really.
We rely on rabbis and agencies who are compensated for Kosher supervision and certification. The Monsey story affects us all. Rememeber the chicken kiev story in another community? Those Treif chickens were certified Kosher by the largest and most famous Kosher certifying agency in the world and it cast a shadow on all Kosher supervision. Like it or not, we’ve all eaten Treif, even if unknowingly. The Monsey story is our business and we all have to do Tshuva.
We all have to do Tshuva but we are not responsible. The rabbis who are in the business of Hechshairim are responsible for any Treifus under their watch. And we surely get the leaders we deserve. Who is watching the “watchers?”
It is well known that years ago in Denver, Rabbi Shlomo Twerski, ZTZ”L, personally supervised the (Chalak) Shechita without any remuniration. He wanted people to be able to rely on the Hechsher without question.
“If one is not a Beis Din, it is not one’s place to demonize the person involved. As terrible as the betrayal is, Chazal tell us not to judge a person until we are in their exact place.”
It’s not at all clear that discussing this case is Loshon Hora when the discussion is about the proprietor of the store. In a case, where one knowingly did something he knew to be wrong (and not “talking-in-shul is wrong but everybody does it” wrong) and did it for many years, it would be permitted to speak badly of his actions. Internet forums are a very bad place for halachah discussions, so consults your local Orthodox rabbi and sefer Chafetz Chaim, klal 4 (dalet), seif 7 (but be aware that Chafetz Chaim lists 5 conditions that need to be satisfied before speaking badly of even a rasha). Also see Chafetz Chaim klal 2, seif 9 about the family angle of it.
As to what positive effect the discussion will serve? Well for one, I’m sure the next guy who’ll be tempted wants to pull a similar thing off will hopefully think twice about the effect it might have on him and his family.
The only worthwhile discussion about this matter is about how to minimize the chances of a repetition. Crooks are creative; cops need to stay one step ahead of them. Deterrence is better than cleaning up the mess.
Chatter among ourselves about any specific bad guy or about some other community’s values falls outside this category.
There’s a fine line between righteousness and self-righteousness.
Just a quick thought:
The sheer volume of meat that is consumed by our community is staggering.
It is incredibly difficult to find qualified mashgichim and shochtim who can pump-out the required volume. This creates an opportunity for fraudulent Kashrus activity.
We should consider cutting-down on our comsumption of beef and poultry.
We would be healthier, too, if we did that. The largest nutrition study ever undertaken, The “China/Cornell University Study,” suggests that the optimum amount of meat should be 10% or less of the total diet. The other 90% should consist of whole grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds.
The Talmud states that a Talmid Chacham should eat mainly cooked and raw vegetables (except for Shabbos and Yom Tov, when meat, fish and wine is customary).
Hillel,
How do you know how much meat we eat relative to other Americans (or Humans) (or Jews in earlier periods)? Most frum Jews are too financially strained to eat a lot of meat. We do have a lot of seudos mitzvah, but outside of that, I don’t see what you mean.
Why is it that whenever there is any sort of rabbinic / religious scandal, we’re told that the protagonists and those involved can and will find repentance, but us poor folk who actually inquire as to the substance of the wrongdoing, express concern, and demand action, are the truly wicked ones who will burn in hell?
So many of these rabbis see the Internet as the greatest threat to the religion as they envision it. And you know what, they’re right. Because now with a few mouse clicks one can discover that the Rabbi in Monsey leading the pack in shrill denunciations was run out of Toronto and sued for stealing millions of dollars. And that the Lakewood Rabbi who boasts all over the Internet that he knew something was fishy with the Monsey butcher ten years ago and therefore is justified in demanding outrageous kashruth safeguards, is the same guy who tried to shake down Rubashkin for a 10% cut of all their sales.
The fish rots from the head, and our Jewish communal fish is rotting rapidly. Our government and military leaders in Israel are putrid and corrupt, and our rabbinic leadership ranks are rife with money- and power-grubbing hacks. And all Rabbi Adlerstein can come up with is threats of hellfire and damnation for those poor folk who talk about this?
Heaven help us all…
Re: Post #27
Lets see which claims these “poor folk” and their “a few clicks away” informants can prove under oath.
“Why is it that whenever there is any sort of rabbinic / religious scandal, we’re told that the protagonists and those involved can and will find repentance, but us poor folk who actually inquire as to the substance of the wrongdoing, express concern, and demand action, are the truly wicked ones who will burn in hell?”
and also … why are we so sure that these guys will find repentance as oppsosed to “non frum” sinners about whom there is a mitzvah to look down and point out their transgressions?
#27-
I see a very different picture than you. The inappropriate portrayal of our Rabbonim detracts from your points. Not that I agree with your points, but the crude manner in which you refer to Rabbonim doesn’t get your ideas to first base in intellectual and honest discussion.
Michoel:
Talk to Meal Mart (Alle Procesing) and International Glatt, for starters.
Ask them how much sales growth they have experienced lately.
Then check the statistics on the increase of serious degenrative diseases, like heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and obesity in our community.
” “non frum” sinners about whom there is a mitzvah to look down and point out their transgressions?”
JO- What is your source for this? Chas V’Shalom! This is in most cases not so at all! Don’t tell me I’m wasting my volunteer time in kiruv, when I should be “looking down” and pointing out transgressions? I know, you didn’t mean that…and I don’t think that was your point. But you have to correct that (unless you don’t agree with me).
Mordechai Re #27:
The criticism of our rabbinic leadership is on target, but the bottom line is, we get the leadership we deserve. Perhaps this is because we do not demand more from our rabbis, in our shuls, day schools, yeshivas and, of couse, hashgachos. Das Torah? No excuse.
There is one very significant difference between the story that R. Schwadron told and the present scandal/crisis. In the former, all those who “stirred the pot” had no interest at all in the subject — they were neither accused of wrongdoing nor stolen from. In contrast, here the wrongdoer was machti es ha rabbim.
Who wide is the “rabbim?” Very. I do not live in Monsey, but I know several people there (who have now had to kasher their pots and pans). As I was discussing this with one of those Monsey residents, the person said, “You no doubt ate some of it.” She’s right! I’ve been to simchas in Monsey (weddings, sheva berachos, bar mitzvas); I’ve visited Monsey for Shabbos; I’ve eaten in the houses of people in my town who shopped in Monsey (or whose parents shopped for them.) Many of these were sourced by the person who was caught — I was told that a very popular catering hall in Monsey was sourced by this person. So it is conceivable that I have eaten treif maybe a dozen or more times in the last ten years, Hashem Yerachem!
This is probably typical of many people who live in the greater NY area.
So excuse me, R. Adlerstein, I believe that I am entitled to resent the fact that I was fed tarfus by a pious fraud on multiple occassions, and that the holy rabbonim of Monsey were apparently too incompetent to catch him (over a period of years, if not decades!) I believe I am entitled to put harsh, difficult questions to the Rabbonim whose hechsherim I relied upon on multiple occassions, which now turned out to be as reliable as Oscar Mayer.
I believe that financial improriety, and this is just another example of such, is a communal issue. Of course, there is no need to spout off the latest rumors related to this particular case.
But, I think there is a need for a long overdue discussion about yashrut. This is just another area where the lack of yashrut is bitting our kehillot in the backs.
To my friend Tal and others,
Please back off on your criticism of the Rabbonim involved. You clearly do not know of whom you are speaking in such a callous fashion. There is no “incompetence” in reliance upon Halacha, which gives a chezkas kashrus (a presumption of correct conduct) to one who is known to be observant.
As anyone in Kashrus will tell you, at some point you are trusting the owner. No matter what you do, a shady character will attempt to get around the rules — Jew or non-Jew, observant or not. So no reputable Kashrus organization will attempt to certify a restaurant whose owner strikes them as shady.
Now it happens that the Star-K (full disclosure: our landlord) apparently requires a mashgiach t’midi, full-time mashgiach, for meats, and doesn’t trust the owner no matter who he appears to be. But that’s not what halacha requires.
The owner in question was well-known, and was even known to be an upstanding character. He didn’t just behave like an “ordinary frum guy,” but even above average. This is what makes the story all the more stunning.
The Rabbi who provided him with certification is an outstanding Talmid Chacham (scholar), educator, and congregational leader. He radiates both warmth and fear of Heaven. To accuse him of “incompetence” in any area of Torah u’Mitzvos is simply out of bounds — in our lifetimes, we will not rise to his ankles in “competence” in anything related to Toras Hashem.
This is exactly, davka, precisely what Rav Schwadron zt”l was talking about. Don’t even think of talking like that about the Rav in question. He relied upon the Halacha. People can circumvent Halacha, even take advantage of Halacha — much as other Rabbonim (such as Rav Heinemann of the Star-K) might do otherwise, you can’t say that someone who relied upon Halachic standards was “wrong,” no matter how badly someone else took advantage.
“People can circumvent Halacha, even take advantage of Halacha—much as other Rabbonim (such as Rav Heinemann of the Star-K) might do otherwise, you can’t say that someone who relied upon Halachic standards was “wrong,” no matter how badly someone else took advantage.”
At the end of the day, this rav is the one who said, no, GUARANTEED, this meat was kosher. It wasn’t, and an entire community ate traife because of his supervision. Are you really saying he’s totally innocent in this matter? Don’t you see how he broke the trust with the people of Monsey, because he didn’t go BEYOND the strict halachic necessities to prevent this sort of thing from happening?
I don’t assign very much blame to him at all, from what I understand of the situation, but he was responsible, and he needs to face up to that responsibility – as he is doing, so I’ve read. Good for him.
-DMZ
Further to my comment(#21) regarding multiple and overlapping hashgachos and supervision, I read that there was a meeting between the OU and the CRC in wake of the Monsey scandal to reassess Kashrus systems. This, I believe, is a positive example of cooperation between different certifying organizations.
I indeed feel that the need for achdus(unity) should outweigh considerations of marketing and/or communal independence, which lead to printing multiple hashgachos on wine bottles. This is especially true if there is no substantive difference in these hashgachos.
However, it is possible that such unity may only be realistically possible during Moshiach’s times, as a multiplicity of hechsherim on a single product is, for better or for worse, a symbol of splintering of communities. If so, then we should note as a positive development the smaller, more realistic examples of unity in kashrus supervision, such as the above-mentioned meeting between Satmar and the Orthodox Union, and look forward to seeing more such instances in the future.
Jewish Observer, I’ve been on cross-currents.com and forums.torah.org for years, identifying myself correctly as an intermarried Heterodox Jew. While nobody Orthodox condoned my non Halachic life choices, I didn’t get the feeling that anybody is looking down at me either.
I’m not saying that there are no Orthodox Jews who look down on the Heterodox. I’m only saying that as far as I can tell, it’s considered a fault, not a Mitzva.
“To accuse him of “incompetence” in any area of Torah u’Mitzvos is simply out of bounds—in our lifetimes, we will not rise to his ankles in “competence” in anything related to Toras Hashem.”
- not allowing for the possibility of incompetence davka calls tzidkus into question. I am not sure you are doing the rabbi a favor here with the rabbinic infallibility theory.
hp and Ori,
If so, I take back what I said.
regards
With all due respect for Talmidei Chachamim who work for the sake of Heaven: Today, the responsibility for Hashgocha carries with it “strict liability.” This is largely due to changes in the whole business of Kosher food production. We are not living in pre-war Europe in a Shtetl where they Shechted one cow a month. Chickens are slaughtered on a conveyor belt at high speeds.
While his context was much different, Ronald Reagan’s principle, “Trust, but verify”, applies here, too.
The price disparity between kosher and nonkosher food is enough to create an incentive for fraud. If looking very frum and (outwardly) acting very frum are enough to allow a would-be cheater to do his thing without olam-hazeh consequences, we’ll be seeing more such problems.
Once a failure investigation is underway, all assumptions about the situation and personnel (shop owner, shop employees, mashgichim, kashrus administrators…) need to be looked at critically by trained, fully knowledgeable, independent investigators.
They need to ask hard questions of the supervisory organization–no matter what its reputation is–such as:
1. Are their kashrus inspection records complete enough to confirm that the inspection process met recognized halachic standards (frequency, thoroughness, compliance with all rules…)?
2. If any elements of diligent inspection of procedures, incoming shipments, and paperwork were neglected, why?
3. Which, if any, warning signs were ignored or discounted, and why?
Hillel,
A g’mar chasima tova. I don’t want this to sound adversarial. If an individual asserts that something is fact, and it is not at all obvious to a reader that it is fact, it is upon the asserter to have his evidence at hand and to present it. I don’t have time for research projects right now. Please sight some hard evidence.
R. Menken:
I fear that you do not appreciate the gravity of the situation. Let me respond by pointing out a few things:
1. The gemara in Eruvin states: Bemakom Chillul Hashehm Ein Cholkin Kavod La Rav. Note that it does not say that you do not HAVE to, it says Ein Cholkin. You MAY NOT! Kavod Shomayim comes before Kavod ha Rabbonim.
The latest scandal in Monsey is a massive Chillul shem Shomayim by anyone’s account. I understand that a baal teshuvah yeshiva there is now in a crisis of confidence. Not to mention that hundreds, if not thousands, of Jews who were yirei shomayim were nichshal in an issur of neveilah.
Such a situation demands serious scrutiny and tough questions. A few more chillul Hashem’s like this and we can say goodbye to Torah as we know it in America.
Kavod ha Rabbonim is important, but does not trump everything. You can say, “Holy, Holy, Holy, the Rabbonim of Monsey, the Whole World Is Filled With Their Glory” all you want. When you’re done, I still want to know why food that I ate that Rabbi X said was kosher turned out to be neveilah.
2. I am well aware that the Rabbonim in Monsey are very learned, holy, have great middos, are warm — alle gutte maalos. I’ll even accept that I will never reach their ankles, as you put it.
Except for one thing. Their superiority is the reason THEIR name is on the hasgacha and mine wasn’t. They took on that responsibility, I didn’t.
And now the result — thousands of yidden have been nichshal in eating neveilah with their name on it. Frankly if it was my name, I don’t know if I could face RH and Yom Kippur. But in any case, having taken on that responsibility, they can hardly complain when scrutiny and criticism follow.
3. Part of “competence” in practical rabbonus (including giving hashgochos) is being able to understand the realities of commercial life and sniff out the crooks. That is part of what used to be called the fifth cheleik of Shulchan Arukh.
Yes, I well understand that the pious fraud at the heart of the scandal pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes, rabbonim included, for decades. They were duped, no question about it. But now that we know that, my confidence level is, you’ll excuse me, not very high, regardless of whether they know Shas better than I know Aleph-Beis.
4. The gemara states that Hashem saves even behemtan shel tsaddikim from eating what is not permitted them. Well, it appears that neither the rabbonim, nor the community (and here I include myself, because, while I do not live there, as I said I have probably eaten there several dozen times) have reached that madreiga. That is food for thought, No?
5. One poster here raised the issue of yashrus. Let’s do a thought experiment: imagine this same person had instead been caught in a financial crime, a stock swindle, maybe, or tax fraud. What would the reaction have been? The same, less or more? If less, why?
Answering these questions may be a start in dealing with the problem in the future.
What many people don’t realize is that a very large part of the Mashgiach business depends on SiYata D’Shmaya.
No Mashgiach can be absolutely cetain that something has not slipped by him. Mutphy’s Law is the rule–”If something can go wrong, it will.”
I’ve heard many hair-raising stories from Mashgichim who encountered serious potential breaches of kashrus, which they caught–fortuitously–at the very last minute.
Large volume production of internationally distributed foods, with multiple ingredients originating from all over the world greatly multiply the chances for Kashrus errors.
The best course of action for Jews who are serious about their Kashrus observance is “EAT LESS, AND KEEP IT SIMPLE!”
Forget about “Fine Dining,” complicated banquets, nosh foods laden with artificial colors and flavors. Stick to natural uncomplicated foods.
You will end-up much healthier, in both body and soul.
>There is no “incompetence” in reliance upon Halacha, which gives a chezkas kashrus (a presumption of correct conduct) to one who is known to be observant.
What is the point of a hashgacha then? Lemaaseh the halacha doesn’t require eating food with labels, only that we eat kosher food. We have developed a system which goes beyond that and installs mechanisms to ensure that the ingredients are checked and much, much more.
Who needs a rav ha-machshir to rely on eid echad neeman beisurin when that is exactly what the layman can do?
The fact is that we have created an entire industry because we demand MORE than what the halacha requires. The rabbinic side of that industry allows the public to think that it is in fact doing more than trusting an observant guy to be straight.
Tal,
This Chazal which you mention
“4. The gemara states that Hashem saves even behemtan shel tsaddikim from eating what is not permitted them…”
is actually a support for us keeping our mouths’ closed. Me’eis Hashem haisa zos! But what should we learn from it? I know an individual that does not eat ANY meat other than what he kashers himself. The meant is shechted individually by a shochet that he knows personally.
The daas of my beheima (speaking of beheimos), I don’t know. Certainly not the daas of Hashem! But perhaps we should ask ourselves how chaviv kashrus is in out eyes. How is our entire musag of eating? There are bnei Torah that eat hotdogs bought from glatt-kosher venders at baseball games. They sit there fressing away amongst the rest of the stadium chevra. There are so many kashes we can ask on our own eating habits. “Eat to help Israel” or whatever that campign was called. Feh!!! And then we cry that our rabbanim are not doing their job, keeping our fressing glatt kosher. Boo hoo hoo.
Wow. Let’s try this again.
DMZ, the Rav is certainly taking responsibility for not going “above and beyond,” as you said. My comment was strictly to the assertion that following the Halacha reflected “incompetence.” It does not work that way — nor does a hechsher guarantee anything is Kosher. If Tal has indeed eaten at chasunas — in Monsey or anywhere else — it is reasonably certain he’s consumed a few sheratzim (bugs) to go along with his treife meat. The Halacha says what you have to do to check a salad, and trust me that it is no guarantee of anything.
JO, I did not claim that incompetence on the part of a Rav is impossible or call him infallible. Calling him infallible would be ridiculous with years of treife meat on display, would it not? But the fact is that he is not infallible and wasn’t incompetent. There are Halachos of Kashrus, and those Halachos were followed. We already know this, and people are accusing him anyway based upon nothing more than ignorance and armchair speculation.
Bob, same answer. Everything was done correctly as far as the Rav HaMachshir was concerned, as I’ll elaborate.
Tal, what a wonderful hora’as heter (ruling to permit)! Why didn’t I think of that? Since we all know that the chilul Hashem was the Rav’s fault, now we can say whatever we want! I’m sorry that I let things like the Shulchan Aruch obstruct my recognition of the presumption of guilt. In these days before Y”K, it’s exactly the right time to change course and start condemning people, especially outstanding Rabbonim. </sarcasm>
Absolutely it was a chilul Hashem, but you are operating from ignorance of both Kashrus and chezkas Kashrus (a presumption of proper conduct) if you blame that on the Rav. You don’t seem to get it, possibly because you have no idea who was selling the meat. This vendor gave a Daf Yomi shiur, was chazzan on R”H and Y”K in a prominent congregation, and was involved in all sorts of chesed activities. He was known to be an exemplary member of the community. If there is such a thing in the world as a chezkas Kashrus in the Shulchan Aruch — as you know there is — then he had it. On a green to red threat factor scale, this individual was an absolute code green. That’s exactly why this came as such a shock to everyone.
So if you think you can do better, fine. Get up and do it. Get up out of your armchair where you proclaim who is innocent and who is guilty with perfect 20/20 hindsight, and prove to the world that you can “sniff out the crook” who managed to “dupe” not just the Rabbonim (as if they were the collection of simpletons that you seem to imply) but thousands of Monsey Yidden who knew this individual personally and thought they knew what he was made of.
Just to doublecheck, I went upstairs this morning before posting this comment. Rav Heinemann himself, who (as I previously mentioned) requires someone other than the owner check all shipments, also said that you cannot fault the Rav HaMachshir. Which of this collection of blog commenters possesses greater knowledge of Torah, the Kashrus business, or human nature, than Rav Heinemann? Up to this point, the world had no reason to believe that a communal paragon of Torah and chesed might also be opening his back door at 4 am to take in treifos.
So if you don’t feel you can rely upon that Rav, you can’t rely upon any Rav. Porthos, if you feel you can check ingredients better than the industry, by all means go ahead. But when no one in the industry is pointing fingers, get the hint. The words of the Gemara about being careful with the honor of a Talmid Chacham are rarely more important than here.
Your question five seems to be aimed at the Rav not the meat vendor — because someone caught in a financial scandal would not face nearly the communal censure of the salesman, unless he swindled a similar number of people. You just assume the Rav did something wrong, despite a full Shulchan Aruch, all five chalakim, to the contrary.
Of course there has to be talk about revising standards, and not trusting where previously we trusted. But the fact that someone went around the rules does not mean that the Rav is to be faulted for observing them. Frankly, the fact that you ate treif is no more his fault that it is yours. The same Torah says that Moshe was told to go down from the mountain because the people had sinned. The people didn’t deserve Moshe on the mountain anymore.
This is why you don’t see the other Rabbonim of Monsey — including those involved with Kashrus — pointing fingers. Actually, they did — inwardly. They all declared — with a stunning degree of unanimity — that they knew who was to blame. When in the last several decades have the Rabbonim of an entire city the size of Monsey declared a Taanis Tzibbur? You also have to think about the Kiddush HaShem in all this. Everyone Kashered their pots according to their Rav’s directions — and all the Rabbonim declared that you can eat in the house of anyone who followed his Rav’s instructions, even when that Rav permitted what your Rav forbade. Incredible achdus (unity), emerging from a betrayal that shook an entire community to the core. There’s a reason why HKB”H wanted this massive tragedy to happen, and pointing fingers at the Rav is the exact opposite of getting the message.
Porthos:
You are sadly mistaken.
Ed Echad NeeMan Be’Isurrin is great when we were dealing with a mom and pop restaurant in a small shtetl, where the owner personally prepared and served you food fresh from the local fields and fresh from the local shochet. All the ingredients were simple and the only question was whether the owner would intentionally serve you treif meat.
Today the situation is impossible complicated. Even a mom and pop operation uses ingredients that originate in China, Israel, the Midwest, South America–literally, from all over the globe. The owner of the restaurant is physically (and sometimes intellectually) incapable of ascertaining whether or not his sources are kosher.
Put some gentile workers into the mix, and assume a larger and busier operation, and the problem becomes too great for an “Eid Echad” to comprehend, mush less to control.
Only a sophisticated kashruth system, preferably computer-based, can even attempt to control the thousands of variables.
It gets worse. There are far too many “Kashruth” certifying individuals and organizations. It’s total anarchy. Who can keep track of who’s-who:
O-U, O-K, Star-K, Chaf-K, KKK, etc. Sometimes I feel like just throwing-in the towel.
If you want to get out of the morass, the best policy is to go with a couple of reliable Kashruth certifiers that you have carefully researched, then, ignore the rest and treat them as suspected treif.