From a JTA article, linked below, about an unnamed Kashrus agency:

“The agency started the laborious process of checking invoice receipts against sales receipts the week after the Shevach Meat scandal was exposed, the rabbi said, adding that it could take several months to complete the initial check and that its stores would be subject to rolling, random checks in the future.”

Rabbi Genack, of the OU, also talked about a global accounting system to trace meat products through the distribution chain.

Auditors might design statistical sampling tests to detect Kashrus fraud based on levels of risk. There is no concept of materiality in Kashrus, but one can talk of audit procedures designed to provide consumers with a reasonable level of assurance. This would be cheaper then having a mashgiach temedi at every point in the distribution chain. Arthur Anderson(before Enron) originally had a contract with the FBI to a review management and recordkeeping practices, so accountants can also bring their expertise to the Kashrus industry, as Ori mentioned.

As an aside, one of the poskim in the kashrus field mentioned this past Motzoei Shabbos(NYC Zev Brenner Show) that one can not totally abandon the assumption of chezkas kashrus in the meat or any other food supervisory area.

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=17124&intcategoryid=4

Thank you Tal Benschar for brining my point back up. To me, this scandal is not a whole lot different than any other “white collar” crime of recent memory which has sadly occured in one of our communities. The only difference. . . . people are mad as heck that they ate trief. I personally experience great pain when I hear about financial fraud, and I experience even more pain when it is all excused as being for a “good cause.”

***In addition, Ori Pomerantz has excellent points. There is a concept in auditing called Professional Skepticism. It is a skill to develop such (I know what I’m speaking about here :). As a former auditor, and hopefully a future auditor or investigator, I will say that there are myriads of techniques that are already developed to improve internal controls and to detect impropriety.

Does fraud still happen? Absolutely. And, when fraud shakes the foundations of the professional world, procedures are changed and regulated. But, a sound system in place tends to make it a whole lot harder to pull the wool over the eyes of a community.

(There is also something called “peer review” where collegues review the work of each other to do “internal policing.” This also helps keep businesses on the straight and narrow).

Are the Rabbonim bad guys? No. But, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t more that can be learned. And, there are plenty of people out there that could share their knowledge.

Maybe he was just urging caution and judicious discussion of the issue. There is an editorial in this week’s Jewish Press and it was in the NYT, so the issue is getting wide exposure in any event. However, if it needs to be discussed, it should be done in the best manner possible.

One other point I feel compelled to mention. Your posts assume that I have already condemned the Rabbonim and held them at fault for the Chillul Hashem. But that is NOT what the gemara in Eruvin says.

The case there is that a rebbe and talmid were walking somewhere, and they noticed someone violating an issur. The talmid spoke up and chastised the person, apparently effectively. The gemara asks, what happened to the halakha of ein morin halakha bifnei rabbo? The answer is bemakom chillul Hashem, ein cholkin kavod la Rav.

The rebbe their certainly was not at fault, he was just a passerby. Yet when the issue was stopping or mitigating a Chillul shem Shomayim, the talmid was obligated to act, and was NOT ALLOWED to defer to his rebbe. That is the halakha.

What amazes me is that you do not seem to grasp that the “Be Quiet” attitude is itself a major turnoff for many. The blogosphere is filled with cynical people, some of them who have almost a Korach-like attitude towards the rabbonim. I do not share that attitude, and when I respond at all usually push it aside forcefully. Most rabbonim sincerely act to uphold the kavod Shomayim and the needs of the tsibbur.

But here we have had a major breakdown in an Orthodox public institution — the hasgacha of a major town. Thousands have been nichshal. To say the Rov whose name was on the hasgacha bears no responsibility — again not fault, responsibility — plays right into the hands of the cynics who view the rabbinate as a cabal looking out for its own interests. The tsibbur who was nichshal is entitled, IMO, to ask how this happened and how it will be prevented in the future. Answering those questions is part of the responsibility which comes with putting your name on a hasgacha.

Steve Brizel hits it on the nose of the problem-many people both MO and RW who believe that Yahadus is essentially Yoreah Deah. Read the Yom Kippur haftatrot and see if you get that impression.

There will always be some role for small or one-man hashgachot, but clearly some situations (depending on the scale and complexity of the supervised operation, etc.) now require a top-level, large supervisory organization. I can see some value in having cooperatives of smaller hashgachot. A cooperative could create a central front office, database, uniform procedures, and outside audit team, so its members can deliver the level of service expected by consumers of products they supervise.

You do not know me nor my hanhagos, so how you know that I lack kavod ha rabbonim is beyond me.

As for my comments, you seem to have missed the point so, let’s recap. R. Adlerstein told a maaseh from R. Schwadron, which you can read. His point was that there were many who got involved in that machlokes who had nothing to do with it and merely wanted to get involved for its own sake. That is a fair point. Other than the few persons involved, no one had any interest whatsoever in the machlokes. So they should have kept quiet.

My point is that, here, in contrast, the entire tsibbur has been effected, not only in Monsey, but anyone who ate in Monsey. People were caused to be nichshal in an issur Torah. Repeatedly. An issur that Chazal say has serious and deleterious spiritual effects.

Those people are entitled to ask serious questions about how it happened. R. Adlerstein’s attempt to tell us to keep quiet (with threats of gehennom yet) is resented, at least by me.

As for the rabbonim involved, R. Menken seems to feel that they have no responsibility whatsoever. Not only no fault (which I agree, they were duped by a pious crook), but no responsibility. So the name Rabbi X on a hasgacha means nothing. You can end up feeding thousands neveilah under that name, but then kavod ha rabbonim means that those who ate neveilah for many years under your name are not permitted to even ask how it happened and what you intend to do in the future to prevent it. That position I find utterly amazing, and, IMO, contrary to the gemara that be makom Chillul Hashem ein cholkin kavod la Rav.

However, that does not mean that there are no improvements that can be done at a reasonable cost. Business processes can provide the benefit of skills to people who don’t have them. Having an auditor go over the process to improve it won’t cost that much.

Aryeh,
It seems that the Agencies are more vigilant and do keep more than just the shulchan aruch alone and people do pay the prices without complaining. See R Menken’s comments about R Heinemann and the Star K on this blog for an example.

If I knew that a rav hamachshir was not visiting the site, auditing invoices or doing some sort of monitoring then I would balk at paying a higher price in order to subsidize the hashgacha. Why do I need a Rav to tell me that ‘eid echad neeman beissurin’? I can do that by myself and keep the change - especially in this case where the butcher was so well known - why did he even need a mashgiach?

Tal–”We’ve got to have all those derashos about kavod ha rabbonim.”
Based on your comments, they’re necessary for you.
If you want to be machmir and not rely on “shulchan aruch alone,” that’s fine. If the entire community wants to, that’s also fine. But it always struck me as very odd that I’ve never heard people adopting chumras in Loshon hora. Your comments weren’t constructive criticism, they were disrespectful criticism, which is loshon hora m’ikar hadin.

Well then, why did he bother to post and allow comments? What did he think would happen? Chacham eiynav b’rosho. Lifnei eever lo seatin michshol. Avak lashon horah b’kulom.

Would this decade-long fraud have been perpetrated if the Rav Hamachshir had used stronger measures similar to the agencies?

That is why we have agencies. Let’s see some real unanimity from the Monsey Rabbonim and let’s see them centralize the Kashrus field.

Well said, charedilite.

I am reminded of a story of the Chafetz Chaim. Someone asked him, Chazal say that maachalos assuros are metamtem es ha lev — that keeping kosher ensures a spiritual purity. Yet we see many families who kept strictly kosher homes, yet their children went off the derech. How do we explain that?

Answered the Chofetz Chaim, yes, the meat may have been glatt kosher, but was the money which purchased it glatt kosher? If not you still have a potential for timtum ha lev.

Even if the person in question was perceived as a Baal Chesed or Baal Tzedakah, the facts are that the means to do so were acquired via a defrauding of the residents of Monsey.

Nope. No time. We’ve got to have all those derashos about kavod ha rabbonim.

This whole scandel was a potch from Avinu SheBaShamayim. Perhaps now we (on both a personal and communal level) will all take the requirement of honesty a little more seriously, lest we be potched again.

Comment by charedilite

charedilite, I wholeheartely agree. Not holding my breathe, though.

There is no doubt that those aspects of the Monsey community, including but not limited to his own family that depended upon this individual trusted him with the chezkas kashrus of the meat, etc that that they purchased, cooked and ate, etc have a right to feel betrayed and even angry at what they perceive as a lack of neemanus as opposed to the basic halachic issues of hagalas kelim. Am I correct in stating that the public concern seems to be more about halachic inquiries re Yoreh Deah as opposed to Choshen Mishpat? Even if the person in question was perceived as a Baal Chesed or Baal Tzedakah, the facts are that the means to do so were acquired via a defrauding of the residents of Monsey. One would hope that we would see some shiurim or drashos on the importance of dealing properly in business as an element of Kiddush HaShem.

1. If they pay the treif meat provider “above the table”, the Kashrut agency will be able to see that they bought treif meat. “Yosef, why does your Kosher grocery store pay so much to Joe’s Treif Meat butchery?”

2. If they pay the treif meat provider “under the table”, the Kashrut agency will be able to see unreasonable profits on meat. It appears you sold 400 chickens last month, even though you only bought 200. Would you mind teaching us your method of keeping inventory?”

Ori: I did not explain myself properly. May I try again?

The history of business is full of people that everybody knew to be honest and trust worthy, who at some point turned out to be crooks. Enron and MCI are recent examples. Therefore, accounting procedures are developed under the assumption that everybody is a potential criminal. Auditors do not look for people who appear dishonest to audit. Auditors audit people randomly. In a well run business, nobody should ever think: “everybody trusts me, nobody will ever waste their time auditing me, so I can steal money and get away with it”.

It would be unreasonable to expect a Kashrut agency to know that a specific apparently upstanding member of the community is serving treif meat. The only way to reduce this risk is to make sure EVERYBODY knows he or she might be audited, not as the result of suspicion, but just because the randon number generator picked a particular number.

If King David could commit adultery, King Solomon worship idols, and Miryam utter Leshon Hara then none of us is above suspicion.

Baruch Horowitz: “This illustrates the need for understanding the facts on the ground(“metzius”), and also for keeping up to date with the facts and circumstances , as opposed to just theory.”

Ori: I agree. As I said, this is my analysis as an outsider. It’s quite possible that stores are randomly audited, for example, and there are no possible improvements to the process that are worth the cost.

My point was that thinking like a criminal is a separate skill from Torah, and requires special expertise. It is possible that Kashrut organizations already employ such experts.