Comments on: The Bereavement Map Has Changed http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:46:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67439 Jewish Observer Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:32:16 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67439 "Or maybe the observer" - touche “Or maybe the observer”

- touche

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67369 Bob Miller Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:55:42 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67369 Or maybe the observer. Or maybe the observer.

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67349 Jewish Observer Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:47:00 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67349 "spilling out his/her bile" - bile is in the eyes of the bileholder “spilling out his/her bile”

- bile is in the eyes of the bileholder

]]> By: hp http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67249 hp Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:05:16 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67249 "Whoever holds back from spilling out his/her bile in a blog comment is protecting the entire Jewish nation from harm." Bob: The most honest and to the point comment I've seen till now. Thanks for the reminder. “Whoever holds back from spilling out his/her bile in a blog comment is protecting the entire Jewish nation from harm.”

Bob: The most honest and to the point comment I’ve seen till now. Thanks for the reminder.

]]> By: Shimon http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67244 Shimon Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:43:09 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67244 I dont think the chareidim learn in order to protect the country - they do so because its a mitzvah, and its a life style. An added benefitto this, is that it protects the nation, as per the Gemara. An added reason as to why Chareidim do not serve in the army is that is a "treif" environment with more than their fair share of immorailty, desecration of shabbos and other things which the chareidim find not to their liking. I dont think the chareidim learn in order to protect the country - they do so because its a mitzvah, and its a life style. An added benefitto this, is that it protects the nation, as per the Gemara.

An added reason as to why Chareidim do not serve in the army is that is a “treif” environment with more than their fair share of immorailty, desecration of shabbos and other things which the chareidim find not to their liking.

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67224 Jewish Observer Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:49:51 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67224 "Why not dedicate blocks of learning time to specific officials in the Israeli government?" - same direction, but I think there needs to be something non-learning done, to show that this appreciation and solidarity is worth picking up our heads out of the books. In general, demo's of appreciation should be done in a form appreciated by the recipient. This is why we give flowers to a woman and cigars to a man, and why it is a bad idea to tell your wife on your anniversary "in lieu of a card or gift, I will dedicate tonight's learning seder to you" I didn't mean to come across as sarcastic (really!) just trying to drive home the point :-) “Why not dedicate blocks of learning time to specific officials in the Israeli government?”

- same direction, but I think there needs to be something non-learning done, to show that this appreciation and solidarity is worth picking up our heads out of the books. In general, demo’s of appreciation should be done in a form appreciated by the recipient. This is why we give flowers to a woman and cigars to a man, and why it is a bad idea to tell your wife on your anniversary “in lieu of a card or gift, I will dedicate tonight’s learning seder to you”

I didn’t mean to come across as sarcastic (really!) just trying to drive home the point :-)

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67222 Jewish Observer Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:38:32 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67222 "let’s not delude ourselves that every charedi learning in Israel is doing so to defend the land/state." - anyone who is so deluded cannot be intimately familar with charedi society. For most charedi bochurim that I know, defending the land / state is so far off the radar that they don't think in terms of articulating their reasoning at all. It is simply something chilonim do and we don't do. “let’s not delude ourselves that every charedi learning in Israel is doing so to defend the land/state.”

- anyone who is so deluded cannot be intimately familar with charedi society. For most charedi bochurim that I know, defending the land / state is so far off the radar that they don’t think in terms of articulating their reasoning at all. It is simply something chilonim do and we don’t do.

]]> By: Nachum http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67208 Nachum Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:47:56 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67208 Exactly my point, JO. It would be easier to swallow the excuse if it didn't come along with a nice serving of anti-Zionism. Look, many people don't serve because they're afraid. Fair enough. Many don't because they're not too thrilled about participating in anything to do with the state. (For example, I doubt that the UTJ members of governments refuse to be called "Minister" because they think it somehow protects the land.) Again, fair enough. Many don't serve because they're born into that system. Once again, fair enough. But let's not delude ourselves that every charedi learning in Israel is doing so to defend the land/state. Exactly my point, JO. It would be easier to swallow the excuse if it didn’t come along with a nice serving of anti-Zionism.

Look, many people don’t serve because they’re afraid. Fair enough. Many don’t because they’re not too thrilled about participating in anything to do with the state. (For example, I doubt that the UTJ members of governments refuse to be called “Minister” because they think it somehow protects the land.) Again, fair enough. Many don’t serve because they’re born into that system. Once again, fair enough. But let’s not delude ourselves that every charedi learning in Israel is doing so to defend the land/state.

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67206 Bob Miller Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:35:10 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67206 Why not dedicate blocks of learning time to specific officials in the Israeli government? The learners can send their beneficiaries nicely engraved cards stating the number of hours logged and the subjects covered. The subjects can be chosen to be relevant to those officials' often misunderstood or neglected duties. Why not dedicate blocks of learning time to specific officials in the Israeli government? The learners can send their beneficiaries nicely engraved cards stating the number of hours logged and the subjects covered. The subjects can be chosen to be relevant to those officials’ often misunderstood or neglected duties.

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67185 Jewish Observer Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:55:06 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67185 "Do Charedim?" Having learneds in Mir Jerusalem, I would bet that many do, but surely many are victims of the system amd are going through the motions. Even if they do, it would go down much easier with those who serve if those who don't would do something - anything - to show appreciation, versus the attitude of "we don't need to apologize for not serving" here is my idea - during bein hazmanim have a national hakarat hatov hafganah across the charedi world, where yeshiva bochurim across the land demonstrate their appreciation for the ones they are protecting with their learning. how can you argue on this? “Do Charedim?”

Having learneds in Mir Jerusalem, I would bet that many do, but surely many are victims of the system amd are going through the motions.

Even if they do, it would go down much easier with those who serve if those who don’t would do something - anything - to show appreciation, versus the attitude of “we don’t need to apologize for not serving”

here is my idea - during bein hazmanim have a national hakarat hatov hafganah across the charedi world, where yeshiva bochurim across the land demonstrate their appreciation for the ones they are protecting with their learning. how can you argue on this?

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67178 Bob Miller Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:23:54 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67178 Whoever holds back from spilling out his/her bile in a blog comment is protecting the entire Jewish nation from harm. Whoever holds back from spilling out his/her bile in a blog comment is protecting the entire Jewish nation from harm.

]]> By: mb http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67112 mb Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:03:28 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67112 Do Israelis( or Jews around the world) believe, heart and soul, that what the Cheredim( or Tel Avivians, whatever that is) are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm? I certainly don't. Do Israelis( or Jews around the world) believe, heart and soul, that what the Cheredim( or Tel Avivians, whatever that is) are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?

I certainly don’t.

]]> By: mycroft http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67093 mycroft Mon, 28 Aug 2006 03:16:54 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67093 “Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?” should this be the barometer for exemption? Comment by Jewish Observer — August 27, 2006 @ 9:15 agreed But let me paraphrase:“Do Yeshiva Students believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?” should this be the barometer for exemption? “Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?”

should this be the barometer for exemption?

Comment by Jewish Observer — August 27, 2006 @ 9:15

agreed

But let me paraphrase:“Do Yeshiva Students believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?”

should this be the barometer for exemption?

]]> By: Nachum Lamm http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67092 Nachum Lamm Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:52:43 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67092 “Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?” Do Charedim? “Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?”

Do Charedim?

]]> By: Joel Rich http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67091 Joel Rich Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:37:57 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67091 I don't know the answer but it would be an interesting study (though likely impossible to do or to get unbiased answers) -" do all those groups that do not currently serve and are not eligible for call-up, believe that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?" KT I don’t know the answer but it would be an interesting study (though likely impossible to do or to get unbiased answers) -” do all those groups that do not currently serve and are not eligible for call-up, believe that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?”
KT

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67084 Jewish Observer Mon, 28 Aug 2006 01:40:25 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67084 "We’ll know we’ve made progress when the search for people to blame has become our lowest priority." - this will greatly reduce blog fodder (fog blotter?) “We’ll know we’ve made progress when the search for people to blame has become our lowest priority.”

- this will greatly reduce blog fodder (fog blotter?)

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67081 Bob Miller Mon, 28 Aug 2006 01:34:23 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67081 We'll know we've made progress when the search for people to blame has become our lowest priority. We’ll know we’ve made progress when the search for people to blame has become our lowest priority.

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67076 Jewish Observer Mon, 28 Aug 2006 01:15:21 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/08/27/the-bereavement-map-has-changed/#comment-67076 "Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?" should this be the barometer for exemption? “Do Tel Avivians believe, heart and soul, that what they are doing in lieu of military service protects the entire Jewish nation from harm?”

should this be the barometer for exemption?

]]>