Exactly how a massive teshuva campaign in 1939 amongst religious Jews(but not amongst assimilated Jews) would have affected the Holocaust, for example, is not for me to answer. However, great people indeed took hisorerus from events and yet, avoided simplistic answers.

The following issues are involved in explanations given for catastrophic events:

A) Certainty of Explanation: Two sources given for Daas Torah in this instance are \”Chacham adif m\’navi\”(Bava Basra 12a) and \”Sh\’al avicha v\’yagecha\”. Does this mean that in every aspect, a Gadol\’s wisdom is equal to and surpasses prophecy in clarity? Certainly, the Rambam\’s laws of prophecy in Yesodei Hatorah don\’t apply to Gedolim! Is a margin of error allowed in a present day Gadol\’s interpretation of events, or does such speculation take away from Emunas Chachamim(see Gittin 56b and Michtav Meliyahu I pp. 75-77 regarding this issue).

Are explanations of events given intended only as suggestions for Teshuva and introspection, or as definitive historical causation? Is there a distinction between general causes such as assimilation and the Holocaust, or specific ones, such as a the parade in Yerushalayim? What about assigning causation based on timing and proximity of events ? Would all anti-Maimondeans agree to the supposition connecting the burning of the Talmud to that of the Rambam\’s seforim?

B) Complexity of Hashgacha: Hashem\’s judgments are unfathomable–\”Mishpatecha tehom rabba\”. The Ramchal in Daas Tevunos clearly assigns a complex view to hashgacha as far as causation, particularly theodicy. In cases of enormous and incomprehensible human tragedy like the Holocaust(see quote from Chazon Ish in link # 2), or on another level, the Lebanese war, is it appropriate to speak of complexity, and of many dimensions of causation? Or does the very fact that we speak of complexity and not in terms of mono-causality, take away from \”seeing Hashem in history\” and being inspired to do Teshuva? Does it depend on the time and place of such discussion?

C) Effective Tochaca: We do not want to turn Jews away from Torah. From experience, we know that the media takes explanations the wrong way–it doesn\’t subscribe to the gemara in Bava Basra :). The media and internet situation today is different than that of times of Yirmeyahu or the Chassid Yaavetz. Should \”hasbara\” be done contemporaneously , or after the fact? Could the fact that the Orthodox world is fractionalized, be a contributing factor to the lack of contemporaneous Hasbara? How can we prevent misunderstanding–which has happened often in the past– when transmitting the message to the media?

See also the Jewish Action link(in \”Features\” section) below regarding the Tsunami , which is a different issue in hashgacha questions. While everyone here is certainly not required to accept Rabbi Berel Berkovitz Ztl view on the Tsunami, note that he was a Talmid Chachom Shi\’gia L\’horah, and he is entitled to discuss the issue(see obituary). Also, the actual response of Torah Jewry to the Tsunami, is completely unrelated to his analysis of the Rambam in Hilchos T\’aanis.

The truth is that there is a normal human bias against seeing Tochacha in history and current events, which we all are aware of. Neviim, Magiidim, and Mashgichim do not have it easy. When things get scary, that is indeed a time to increase Teshuva and Maasim Tovim in specific areas referred to by Gedolim to the best of our ability, as Bob states. However, I think that different approaches work for different people. For some people, it is helpful to imagine that each act or \”unit\” of immodesty is like a physical missile rachmana litzlan; others do not gain by this approach. Asei lecha Rav.

May Hashem answer our tefillos in the merit of Teshuva, so these discussions become only academic!

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3901.htm
http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5765/5765summer/
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5765/ACH65arbrkwtz.htm
http://torahweb.org/torah/2006/moadim/rwil_3weeks.html
http://eineihaedah.blogspot.com/2006/07/response-to-hezbollah-war-part-2.html
http://caykgh.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_caykgh_archive.html
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/The_Tragedy_of_Tragedy.asp
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/Assigning_Blame.asp

I have a feeling I am misunderstanding your post- I am reading it that during hester panim, we don’t need to think of possible causes to tragic events, because it is a result of ‘hester panim” rather than specific sins, or other Divine reasons. What does it mean that H-Shm ignores tragic events? It cannot be that “ignoring” means no direct manipulation of world events, no direct intervention in our individual lives, no Master Plan that precipitates, guides, and directly causes events in our lives.

If I have misread the post, can you fill me in?

No less than the Ramban understood that the situation of Klal Yisrael in Mitzrayim before they cried out from their oppression was one of complete hester panim.The Ritva states in his teshuvos that we do not say Kaddish Tiskabel on Tisha Bav because the whole motif of Tisha Bav is one where our tefilos, bakoshos, selichos,etc will not be answered( from Maariv thru Shacharis)We have a right as we do in Aicha and Kinos to cry over the events but to accept the Divine Judgement and then in the afternoon realize that teshuvah is always possible, even from the midst of such a catastrophic tragedy. RYBS, in a recently published work on Kinos, understood that the Holocaust was a similar episode of hester panim on a huge scale.

Apologies to anyone who tried to email me on the incorrect address.

We’re talking abstract Torah theory, but there are potentially very grave implications to mistakes in Hashkafa. Klal Yisroel has to get its act together–fast:

DEBKAfile Exclusive: Israeli intelligence ups estimate of Hizballah stock of Zelzal-2 missiles whose 250km range covers Tel Aviv and Jerusalem

July 28, 2006, 1:56 PM (GMT+02:00)

Israeli army chiefs fear that Hassan Nasrallah, having received the nod from Tehran Wednesday, will start firing them at central Israel over the weekend.

Although the Israeli air force has destroyed some of these missiles which carry a 600 kilo payload, several dozen still remain. Thursday night and Friday morning, July 28, Israeli bombers struck Hizballah locations in the northern Beqaa Valley where the Zelzal-2 missiles are stored.

DEBKAfile’s military sources add: The Israeli army discovered the 3.5-on, 8.46 meters long missiles were stored in buildings with strengthened floors and walls to carry their weight, their roofs removed and replaced with makeshift coverings such as branches and twigs. These coverings are dense enough to block the missiles from the view of Israeli aircraft but are easily removable to enable the rapid launch of the Zelzal from inside the building where it is stored. The warning by Israel’s generals about the Zelzal’s deployment also applies to the Mohajer-4, a pilotless aircraft packed with explosives. In November 2004 and April 2005, this Iranian drone penetrated Israeli airspace undetected.

Perhaps, we could agree that different Torah leaders can attribute different causes to a given outcome.

However, the fact that one Torah leader singles out one cause, while another singles out a different one should not be regarded as a contradiction–”Elu, Ve-Elu Divrei E’ Chaim.”–Both causes are probably involved, and none should be disregarded as irrelevant.

In the present context, ALL the Torah leaders–Rav Eliashiv, Rav Steinman, Rav Sternbuch, Gerer Rebbe, to name just a few–have pointed a finger at sexual license as a major cause of our troubles.

Rav Sternbuch has specifically singled-out the “WorldPride” festival as the most egregious contemporary example of this sexual anarchy, and the one that evokes heavenly wrath more than the others, because of its very public–in your face–rebellion against G-D in his Holy Land.

We are recklessly irresponsible when we ignore the warnings of recognized Torah sages, or when we attempt to re-interpret or allegorize their words to the point where they are rendered meaningless and devoid of practical implications for our future behavior.

I also wish to add an addendum to my previous comments. I hope to submit it by tonight, or by Sunday, the latest. I also look forward to having further discussion, if you are interested, on my post(s) on a new group blog which will hopefully begin in mid-August, iy’h. E-mail me after Tisha Ba’av at borhowitz AT Yahoo dot Com if you, or anyone else would like more information.

In the meantime you might want to modify the following……

“In connection with Rav Moshe Sternbuch’s written (yes, written)statement that the Lebanon war is the result of homosexuals publicly defiling Jerusalem with their abominations, you wrote: “No one knows the ways of G-D.”

“This is an agnostic statement. If all of us would react similarly to the words of our Torah leaders, we would all be cast adrift in our Golus.”

In light of……

“we do not claim to know the reason why troubles have befallen us, but certainly any areas we improve can be effective in removing HaKodosh Boruch Hu’s wrath”

and

“There is no way to know the ways of Heaven, but certainly every individual can examine his own conduct.”

There can be more than one way of understanding these issues.

I did attempt to motivate Hillel to more carefully analyze Baruch’s position, which is not the same as mine.

Addendum to my previous comment:

Rav ELiashiv and Rav Steinman have not chosen to specifically point to the promotion of Homosexuality in Israeli society as the cause of our current tragedies, although they have allude to a lack of “tzenius.”

The reason, I believe, is that they take the position that speaking about this perversion in public will give publicity to it and, c’v, possibly lead to curiousity among young impressionable bochurim who might becoming ensnared in this perverted Taava. The Gerer Rebbe has also taken this position, although he has workd actively behind the scenes.

In fact, the Gedolim forbad their house organs–the Hamodia and the yated–from publishing stories about the battle against the GayPride festival, for fear of the negative consequences.

Rav Sternbuch understood their position, but his ShiKul HaDaas came-down on the other side–silence could bring-down death and destruction on Am Yisroel, so it was imperative to speak out loudly and publicly. Joining Rav Sternbuch in this approach was Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Rav Mordechai Eliyohu, and Rav Amnon Yitzchok, who has organized a massive public rally in Teddy Kollek Stadium in Jerusalem next month–the them of this rally is “Jerusalem is not Sodom.”

So, you see, the Torah Hashkofo is not as murky and unknowable as you think.

The passage I quoted from Rav Miller, ZT”L,–LaShov HiKeisi Es BeNeiChem, Mussar Lo LokoChu”–clearly implies that, despite the need for a nuanced approach, HaShem gives us clear and unambiuous messages, which can be discerned by Torah leaders whose minds have not been confused by reading too many newspapers that preach the randomness of current events.

To accuse HaShem of killing countless innocent people for no reason at all, is Loshon Horah in the extreme. It is a true Chilul HaShem.

We are obligated to search for the reasons for our tragedies, in order to understand where we need to mend our ways, in order to avoid further tragedies.

When we throw-up our hands and say “who can really know why these tragic events happened to us,” we are frustrating G-D’s desire to lead us to a proper Teshuva.

It is the role of the Torah leaders of each generation to observe the events around us and guide us in responding appropriately. Our role, as laymen, is to accept their leadership and respond, each of us on his own level.

When we undermine the plain and straightforward statements of our Gedolim, because it makes us feel uncomfortable, we undermine our ability to do a proper Teshuva.

One struggler’s thoughts on the Gay Pride March

The planned Gay Pride march in Jerusalem – whether it takes place or not - is, no doubt, triggering a number of reactions in the Jewish world. But while most discussions revolve around national and religious issues, some of us are affected on a far more personal level. For those of us who are dealing with homosexual desires, this march represents a major crossroad in our lives.

On one hand, we can continue with unanswered questions, double lives, and feelings of emptiness as we get left behind while everyone else seems to be finding their life-partners and settling down. Or, we can ‘come out’ and join the parade. We can embrace - and hopefully be embraced by – the Gay Community. The choice seems obvious.

The march seems to offer so much: Glitz, glamour, freedom, liberalism, an accepting community, etc. But, remember all that glitters is not gold. I am not certain that it can fulfill all its promises.

So, don’t run into any hasty decisions – just because the ‘circus has come to town’. Do not get caught up in the event and make bold ‘coming out’ announcements. Waving rainbow flags on national TV with thousands of others will definitely give you a sense of camaraderie, but what happens when they all go home? We owe it to ourselves to investigate all options before making decisions that could affect our entire lives.

Rather use this time to investigate other options, and, yes, contrary to what the Gay Movement would have us believe, there are other options. Unfortunately, many of these have been stigmatized. The Gay Movement is very quick to cite the ineffective treatments of the past: exposing homosexual men to gay pornography and then giving them electrical shocks, or advising them to snap themselves with an elastic band every time they had a homosexual thought. Even if these were once was considered a cure for homosexuality, they are no longer.

Today therapists have a far deeper insight into the root causes of homosexuality, and it is at this deeper level that they focus. A good place to start is finding out more about their theories and insights - you may be surprised at how closely their ideas resonate with you and your experiences. You can check out http://www.peoplecanchange.com, http://www.narth.com and http://www.jonahweb.org. In particular, look for articles by Joseph Nicolosi, Richard Cohen and Alan Medinger.

But before you do, here are a few things that I wish I had been told when I first started:

Firstly, you will often see the term “Reparative Therapy”. This is quite an unfortunate term, as it seems to imply that we are broken and need to be fixed. Don’t be put off by this. Once I understood the reasoning behind the term, a light went on. The term refers to therapy that is based on the “Reparative Drive Theory of Homosexuality”: Part of developing our masculinity is building healthy bonds with other men – particularly our fathers - but for whatever reason this did not happen early on in childhood. So in an attempt to repair these unmet needs for attention, affection and approval from other men, we develop same-sex attractions. Reparative Therapy focuses on pinpointing the initial factors that prevented these bonds from developing naturally, dealing with these factors, and then helping us develop these bonds, and to bring out other important qualities that have gone underdeveloped.

This brings me to the next point. From my experience, very little of the therapy is actually focused on the same-sex attractions. Rather it focuses on a number of aspects that would benefit other aspects of our lives as well: Building better bonds with men. Developing healthier relationships with our parents. Feeling better about ourselves, our bodies, our insecurities. Building confidence and assertiveness. Taking healthy risks. Sports and exercise. Learning how to deal with stress, anger and rejection. Identifying triggers. Dealing with our unhealthy pornography and sex addictions. Aren’t these things that anyone would benefit from, whether they have same-sex attractions or not? And, even if they did not solve all our same-sex attraction issues, wouldn’t the overall growth be worthwhile anyway?

You’ll notice that I used the words “same-sex attraction”. You’ll see it used pretty often in the literature. Initially, I was quite cynical of this terminology when I first saw it and its acronym “SSA”. Why not just say “gay”? That’s what it means, right? Well if that were the case - that SSA equaled GAY - then why not talk about the “Same-Sex Movement” organizing the “Same-Sex Attraction March”, celebrating “Same-Sex Attraction Pride”? While the term SSA refers to one particular aspect about us, “gay” implies that this aspect is us, and that we are defined by it. As freeing as it may be to come out as gay, it felt even more freeing when I realized that I did not have to base my entire life’s journey on these attractions.

The final thing I think you should know before investigating these options is that there are no clear, definitive answers. One study says one thing, another says the opposite, and there’s considerable mud-slinging between the proponents of the two. One day you’ll hear about someone who got rid of his or her SSA, and is now part of a fulfilling heterosexual relationship, and the next day you’ll hear that sometimes the best one can hope for is leading a fulfilling celibate life. And even if there are people out there with definite answers, it takes considerable time and effort. It’s a process with ups and downs, and often with an end point that isn’t clear and that’s different for each person. Some will be able to reduce these same same-sex attractions and develop opposite-sex ones, while for others this won’t be possible. Just don’t expect to find someone who can sprinkle a little ‘anti-faerie dust’ on you, and make all your problems go away.

Once you’ve done some research, you’ll know what’s possible and what’s involved, and you will be able to make a far more informed decision.

You can then decide how you would like to deal with this, and whether this is something that you want to deal with now. Although it doesn’t have to, once we set out on this process, it tends to occupy much of our thoughts and energy. If you’re working on growth in other areas and you’re seeing progress, then that may be enough for now. If, on the other hand, things are getting to you and you’re about to take up that rainbow flag, then it may be time.

Also, if you’re in Israel – even if you originally came to support the march – then you should really take advantage of the resources that are available here. Israel is geared towards people who are busy soul searching and are on their own personal growth paths. There are rabbis and therapists who specialize in this area. There are support groups for people who are struggling with the same issues. Contact the people who run the JONAH website and they can put you in touch with local therapists who specialize in this area.

There is certainly a huge difference between coming out to the world as being gay, and sharing one’s struggle with a few trusted people who may be able to listen, advise and guide us; and with whom we can build deep long lasting healthy relationships. Sharing this struggle with others is scary and risky, but the rewards will be ten-fold.

At the end of the day, the decision is yours. Everyone you speak to will have their own opinions, issues, prejudices, and motives. You need to make sure that the choices you make are right for you. And not only for right now, but for tomorrow as well. Don’t make them out of frustration or impulsiveness, but rather rationally and knowledgeably.

I wish you much luck and success on your journey.

You can contact me at akiva at g mail dot com.

I personally agree with HaRav Shternbuch on this 100%, but feel you didn\’t do justice to Baruch\’s argument.

I’m surprised at your comment. You’re normally a straight shooter.

Macro-micro-mini-maxi–why are you dancing around the issue?

Rav Sternbuch said it very plainly: The Lebanon attack is a direct punishment for the sin of sexual anarchy and our lack of adequate protest, as it is stated plainly in the Torah: “VeShov MeAchareCha.”

The Israeli Government is openly challenging G-D by encouraging GayPride parades (and the courts have imposed huge fines on Mayor Lupolianski for trying to stop the Parades).

The Israeli Tourism Ministry is openly inviting the international Homosexual travel associations to make Israel the world’s Gay capital
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274483,00.html

So, why is it so hard for a Torah-thinking Jew who learned about Sodom and Gomorrah to understand that we’re suffering retribution for “ervas dovor,” just as Sodom did.

As for those who are not directly involved, we have two rules that apply:

1. There is liability and punishment, if you had the power to protest, and you didn’t (Rav Sternbuch’s argument)

2. You will suffer if you are in the vicinity, when retribution occurs (like Lot’s wife in Sodom)–”Oy LaRosho, Oy LishChaino.”

As I wrote earlier, we are unaccustomed to thinking this way, because we are used to reading the “explanations” of current events in the newspapers, which teach us that everything is “Mikro.”

To those who argued that we cannot know the true cause of anything, because we are not prophets, Rav Avigdor Miller, ZT”L, used to quote the posuk “LaShov HiKeisi Es BeNeichem, Mussar Lo LoKoChu.”–In vain did I punish your children, they refused to learn the lesson that I was trying to teach them (they claimed that they were not capable of understanding the reason for G-D’s punishments).

Hillel,

That is quite an accusation, which I think that I should take seriously. This is the first time, in my blogging history (I have been commenting for a few months, now) that I have been thus accused. I will therefore give things more thought until the end of the day or possibly longer, before responding.

Binyamin,

Were you referring to me, when you wrote \”trying to attack …and shows a complete misunderstanding…\”? If you were, please be more specific like Hillel, so I can review what I had written and respond. I do agree with much of what you wrote.

The same goes for anyone else who will weigh in, and disagrees with what I wrote–please be specific. Of course, if you agree, feel free to express that as well!

Here is a quote from your commentery on the Sarmar Rov and his analysis of the reasons for the holocaust: “I doubt anyone—Satmar or non-Satmar—gives a simplistic explanation for why Hashem let the particular Kedoshim be murdered during the Holocaust.”

I’m quite familiar with the Satmar Rebbe’s approach. He meant it literally, not figuratively or allegorically. See his famous sefer “VaYoel Moshe” for his detailed analysis of the holocaust and its origins.

To call the Satmar Rebbe or his Hasidim “simplistic” simply because they refuse to parse the words of the applicable Midrashim or reinterpret them allegorically is an agnostic approach that is an insult to these Talmidei Chachomim.

You may legitimately cite any Rebbes of yours who disagree with the Satmar Rebbe’s analysis, but do not parse the Satmar Rebbe’s words to the point, where the become so ambiguous that they are rendered meaningless.

Similarly, Rav Sternbuch meant his words literally–When we drive HaShem out of our midst by tolerating sexual anarchy, we are punished by death and destruction, viz, the attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah.

We–and I include myself–have become so insensitive to the Torah and Emunah method of viewing the vissicitudes of life (Ma Zos Asah E’ LaNu) that we are made uncomfortable by a “simplistic” Torah analysis of current events that does not take into account the latest military analysis of the situation that we read in the New York Times.

In the topic under discussion, for example, a few off-the-cuff reasons for the current war could be to distract the government from some other innapropiate decision that we are unaware of (for those who like to blame the government), as a punishment for an decrease in level of tznius (for those who prefer this angle) or to prevent a larger war in the future (for the optimists). While we cannot say that these reasons are impossible, they are unreasonable. (If we want to blame the government then the worldpride is enough of a reason without conspiracy theories, there was no noticable change in tznius levels in our community, or any particular innappropiate events, at this moment in time, and it is odd to suggest that a war as a good thing rather than a warning or punishment, [especially during the three weeks]).

Regardless of the chosen explanation it is only meant to explain the primary event - i.e. the outbreak of the war. It would not explain why the war is in the north and not a different part of the country. In the same way, saying that Zionism caused the holocaust only explains the overall event, but is not meant to address why a particular child was killed.

Our explanations then are meant to be the most reasonable explanation we can give for based on what we know. This is something we do not have to be scared of doing, and which we should try to do in accordance with our belief that Hashem controls history. Trying to give a definate or thorough explanation is wrong. Likewise, trying to attack an explanation because it is not definate and thorough shows a complete misunderstanding of what such explanations are meant to be.

Can you be clearer as to what you find objectionable about what I wrote(specific sentences, phrases and ideas)?

If you insist on parsing every word that you read from our sages, you will end up reinterpreting their words to mean whatever you want them to mean.

To quote the infamous words of our former President Clinton; “It depends on what the meaning of “IS” is!

Like many of those who learned in Litvshe Yeshivos, I was taught to revere the Satmar Rebbe Z’TL, who displayed much love for members of Klal Yisroel. Yet the Rebbe “claimed that the Zionist movement had brought the Holocaust upon the Jewish People by violating the oaths incumbent upon them.”(see link below)

Does this mean that innocent children were tortured by Dr. Joseph Mengele, yimach shemo, solely as a direct result of the 3 oaths? Even adding the gemara in Bava Kama that innocent people may be caught up in punishment,the concept of korbanos,assimilation, or the concept of gilgulie neshamos, I doubt anyone–Satmar or non-Satmar– gives a simplistic explanation for why Hashem let the particular Kedoshim be murdered during the Holocaust.

It must be, m’kaan raiyah, that “explanations” for events need to be understood in some way along the lines which I have indicated previously.

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/teitelbaum.htm

I think that rather than disagreeing that much, we are simply stressing two different sides of the same coin, which Bob above, referred to as a “paradox”.

How about this as a mashol for “Divine Calculus”:

A particular aveirah can be compared to one of many cogs in a machine with a complex system of gears, wheels and cogs. You may identify or isolate a pattern of ten cogs in an historical event like the Holocaust or Hurricane Katrina, and therefore be inspired to do teshuva. However, even a Navi does not see the complete machine.

As important as Daas Torah is, I don’t think that it is exactly equivalent to prophecy; I don’t think that statements in the Gemara about Nevuah today, are intended to mean that statements of today’s Chachmei Hatorah are on the same level as Nevuah during the Beis Hamikdash. A Navi sees more “cogs” than even Chachmei Hatorah. However, even Neveim at times, were not able to see the whole picture until generations later(eg., Midrash regarding Moshe– greatest Navi– about babies found in bricks in Mitzrayim).

This is a balanced approach which allows for teshuva and for seeing a pattern in events, but does not assign simplistic and definitive direct causality, simply because we can’t see the many other “cogs in the machine”.

I also stand by my statement, that any statements such as the one contained in the JP article Hillel linked, can not be understood simplistically, and also need to be explained clearly to the media. I leave the media explaining of the statement, made by one of our generation’s foremost Gedolei Torah, in the capable hands of those whom are much more qualified at hasbara, than any of us here.