Comments on: Descent Into Presbyterian Hell http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:18:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Avigdor M'Bawlmawr http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60182 Avigdor M'Bawlmawr Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:48:53 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60182 Mr. Londonlee, Please take the time to visit the archives and read more of R. Adlerstein's posts, because they'll give you a better sense of what he stands for and cause you to reevaluate your understanding of his meaning. Jews are a people of mercy and lovingkindness. Those are exemplary qualities, but when misapplied they are destructive. You wouldn't advocated those values be applied to Germany or her army in 1944. It would be a perversion of those very ideals, thus being "kind to the cruel." A more holistic Torah view would see that justice must reign for the other values to flourish. The Jewish secularists themselves claim their moral legitimacy from "Jewish values" as they define them. So they open the discussion on what those values are. R. Adlerstein seems to think their lack of balance in Torah as a whole leads them to side with those who would murder us. It is not their chutzpa, it is their being a nebuch. As to those tiny minority in the traditional Jewish world who side with the Arabs, what can one say? They are a marginal group even among the religous who are staunchly anti-zionist but have no illusions about the Arabs. Their anti-zionism so consumes them that they have lost their wisdom. I realize this is an incomplete discussion, but so it must be for reasons of time. Mr. Londonlee,
Please take the time to visit the archives and read more of R. Adlerstein’s posts, because they’ll give you a better sense of what he stands for and cause you to reevaluate your understanding of his meaning.

Jews are a people of mercy and lovingkindness. Those are exemplary qualities, but when misapplied they are destructive. You wouldn’t advocated those values be applied to Germany or her army in 1944. It would be a perversion of those very ideals, thus being “kind to the cruel.” A more holistic Torah view would see that justice must reign for the other values to flourish.

The Jewish secularists themselves claim their moral legitimacy from “Jewish values” as they define them. So they open the discussion on what those values are. R. Adlerstein seems to think their lack of balance in Torah as a whole leads them to side with those who would murder us. It is not their chutzpa, it is their being a nebuch.

As to those tiny minority in the traditional Jewish world who side with the Arabs, what can one say? They are a marginal group even among the religous who are staunchly anti-zionist but have no illusions about the Arabs. Their anti-zionism so consumes them that they have lost their wisdom. I realize this is an incomplete discussion, but so it must be for reasons of time.

]]> By: londonlee http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60174 londonlee Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:07:26 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60174 Mr M'Bawlmawr, I'm sure R Adlerstein apprciates your concern for his time. R. Adlerstein suggestion that it is lack of Torah in their life that is causing or allowing those secular Jews to be "Satan's helpers" does not explain those who have Torah and still have a perversed sense of Jewish Values. I find it oddly interesting that lack of Torah values is always used to explain when a secular Jew has the chutzpa to oppose mainstream political Orthodox thinking. Mr M’Bawlmawr, I’m sure R Adlerstein apprciates your concern for his time. R. Adlerstein suggestion that it is lack of Torah in their life that is causing or allowing those secular Jews to be “Satan’s helpers” does not explain those who have Torah and still have a perversed sense of Jewish Values. I find it oddly interesting that lack of Torah values is always used to explain when a secular Jew has the chutzpa to oppose mainstream political Orthodox thinking.

]]> By: leonard oberstein http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60041 leonard oberstein Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:00:31 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60041 I was born and raised in Alabama and belonged to the Boy Scout troup of the Presbyterian Church in Montgomery. I never encountered anti-semitism in that troop or from the boys who were members of that church. However, the arabs have done a good job over the years of portraying themselves as victims . In he eyes of many, Jews are Goliath and Arabs are little David. I do not doubt that there is anti-semitism behind the divestment campaign . I recall that none of the liberal churchs spoke up for Israel in 1967 leading up to the Six Day War, they all abandoned us.I agree that the world prefers feeling sorry for the poor Jews than seeing us strong and victorious. Let's give encouragement to good Christians and hopefully they can influence their co-religionists. I was born and raised in Alabama and belonged to the Boy Scout troup of the Presbyterian Church in Montgomery. I never encountered anti-semitism in that troop or from the boys who were members of that church. However, the arabs have done a good job over the years of portraying themselves as victims . In he eyes of many, Jews are Goliath and Arabs are little David. I do not doubt that there is anti-semitism behind the divestment campaign . I recall that none of the liberal churchs spoke up for Israel in 1967 leading up to the Six Day War, they all abandoned us.I agree that the world prefers feeling sorry for the poor Jews than seeing us strong and victorious. Let’s give encouragement to good Christians and hopefully they can influence their co-religionists.

]]> By: Ori Pomerantz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60015 Ori Pomerantz Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:07:06 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-60015 The religious Jews who act despicably against Israel are a lot less effective. Nobody outside the enemies of Israel in the Arab world takes Neturei Karta (those that meet with Arafat and keep Web sites - not necessarily the real group) seriously. The religious Jews who act despicably against Israel are a lot less effective. Nobody outside the enemies of Israel in the Arab world takes Neturei Karta (those that meet with Arafat and keep Web sites - not necessarily the real group) seriously.

]]> By: Avigdor M'Bawlmawr http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59985 Avigdor M'Bawlmawr Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:15:38 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59985 Londonlee, I'll save R. Adlerstein the typing -- of course he isn't. If you had read even a few of his posts here, much less his many other articles on contemporary issues, you'd know that. It's just that secular leftist Jews are over-represented in that category, unfortunately. They are the ones who are so often "kind to the cruel" and end up being "cruel to the kind." Londonlee,
I’ll save R. Adlerstein the typing — of course he isn’t. If you had read even a few of his posts here, much less his many other articles on contemporary issues, you’d know that. It’s just that secular leftist Jews are over-represented in that category, unfortunately. They are the ones who are so often “kind to the cruel” and end up being “cruel to the kind.”

]]> By: londonlee http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59949 londonlee Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:02:25 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59949 R. Adlerstein-are you suggesting that there are no religious Jews that act in despicable ways against Israel in the name of Judaism? R. Adlerstein-are you suggesting that there are no religious Jews that act in despicable ways against Israel in the name of Judaism?

]]> By: Ken Applebaum http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59945 Ken Applebaum Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:48:57 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59945 I don't have a Chumash with me here at work but I know the portions of the Torah known as the Tochecha (the great Rebuke) indicate that some of of our greatest enemies will arise from amongst the Jewish people themselves. In any event, I just wanted to thank Dr. Pearl, Rabbi Adlerstein, Mr. Woolsey and everyone else who have made efforts to held undo the divestment resolution. We out here whose jobs and family responsibilities do not allow for active involvement in the effort are behind you all the way and pray for ultimate success in overturning the resolution. I don’t have a Chumash with me here at work but I know the portions of the Torah known as the Tochecha (the great Rebuke) indicate that some of of our greatest enemies will arise from amongst the Jewish people themselves. In any event, I just wanted to thank Dr. Pearl, Rabbi Adlerstein, Mr. Woolsey and everyone else who have made efforts to held undo the divestment resolution. We out here whose jobs and family responsibilities do not allow for active involvement in the effort are behind you all the way and pray for ultimate success in overturning the resolution.

]]> By: Ori Pomerantz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59925 Ori Pomerantz Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:56:08 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/21/descent-into-presbyterian-hell/#comment-59925 To save other people the effort of googling for Johannes Pfeferkorn, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Pfefferkorn . To save other people the effort of googling for Johannes Pfeferkorn, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Pfefferkorn .

]]>