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	<title>Comments on: Secular Kids and Religious Schools</title>
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	<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/</link>
	<description>A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chanoch Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57953</link>
		<dc:creator>Chanoch Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 09:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57953</guid>
		<description>As headteacher of a frum boys high school in Gibraltar we face this issue literally on a daily basis. The community is very small, no other option exsists for parents as far as Jewish scool is concerned, so we feel a duty to accept all children regardless of religious standards.

It is working well here, and I feel two crucial factors contribute to the success.

Firstly there must be a code of conduct that is implemented. This should be done in a manner that makes the children feel they are special and makes them feel proud of themselves and their school.

Secondly, at all levels of management (from class teachers through to the governing body) all parties must be very sensative to this issue and must actively work towards maintinaing a sense of achdus. This is not too difficult if extra curricular activites are made regular.

As soon as each child feels wanted, your education will be easy and successful regardless of standards and general differences. Isn't this the meaning of 'chanoch l'naar'?

I wish all educators much hatzlocho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As headteacher of a frum boys high school in Gibraltar we face this issue literally on a daily basis. The community is very small, no other option exsists for parents as far as Jewish scool is concerned, so we feel a duty to accept all children regardless of religious standards.</p>
<p>It is working well here, and I feel two crucial factors contribute to the success.</p>
<p>Firstly there must be a code of conduct that is implemented. This should be done in a manner that makes the children feel they are special and makes them feel proud of themselves and their school.</p>
<p>Secondly, at all levels of management (from class teachers through to the governing body) all parties must be very sensative to this issue and must actively work towards maintinaing a sense of achdus. This is not too difficult if extra curricular activites are made regular.</p>
<p>As soon as each child feels wanted, your education will be easy and successful regardless of standards and general differences. Isn&#8217;t this the meaning of &#8216;chanoch l&#8217;naar&#8217;?</p>
<p>I wish all educators much hatzlocho.</p>
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		<title>By: HILLEL</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57334</link>
		<dc:creator>HILLEL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57334</guid>
		<description>During the Hungarian anti-Communist Revolution, many Hungarian Orthodox (or partially Orthodox) Jews escaped to Vienna and, ultimatley ended-up in New York.

The Yeshivos and Beth Jacob schools had great difficulty in integrating these new students, with their weak backgrounds.

However, they rose to the ocassion by establishing special classes to ease these students into the mainstream.

This kind of two-track system makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During the Hungarian anti-Communist Revolution, many Hungarian Orthodox (or partially Orthodox) Jews escaped to Vienna and, ultimatley ended-up in New York.</p>
<p>The Yeshivos and Beth Jacob schools had great difficulty in integrating these new students, with their weak backgrounds.</p>
<p>However, they rose to the ocassion by establishing special classes to ease these students into the mainstream.</p>
<p>This kind of two-track system makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Ori Pomerantz</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57205</link>
		<dc:creator>Ori Pomerantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57205</guid>
		<description>A related question, at what age do you want your children to be exposed to heterodox, secular, and non-Jewish ideas and ways of life? Unless they spend their entire lives in 4 amot of Torah, it's going to happen sometimes - when would be the best time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A related question, at what age do you want your children to be exposed to heterodox, secular, and non-Jewish ideas and ways of life? Unless they spend their entire lives in 4 amot of Torah, it&#8217;s going to happen sometimes - when would be the best time?</p>
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		<title>By: mycroft</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57188</link>
		<dc:creator>mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57188</guid>
		<description>"Yeshivos are supposed to educate all Jewish children whose parents are unable to do so. I would be loath to use the “toss them out” attitude in dealing with kids who don’t meet a school’s mimimum standards--No less than the CI viewed the expulsion of a student as a matter of Dinei Nefashos."
Unfortunately, tossing a kid out can lead not only to a kids loss of Yiddishkeit--which one can be a baal teshuva from--but also lead to "tragic accidents"--like the levaya I attended recently of a 16 year old boy. 
KIds are fragile --especially those who are not likely to be talmidei chachamim--even if they were 24/7 masmidim. They are still part of klallIsrael. We don't have an IQ admission test to be part of Knesset Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yeshivos are supposed to educate all Jewish children whose parents are unable to do so. I would be loath to use the “toss them out” attitude in dealing with kids who don’t meet a school’s mimimum standards&#8211;No less than the CI viewed the expulsion of a student as a matter of Dinei Nefashos.&#8221;<br />
Unfortunately, tossing a kid out can lead not only to a kids loss of Yiddishkeit&#8211;which one can be a baal teshuva from&#8211;but also lead to &#8220;tragic accidents&#8221;&#8211;like the levaya I attended recently of a 16 year old boy.<br />
KIds are fragile &#8211;especially those who are not likely to be talmidei chachamim&#8211;even if they were 24/7 masmidim. They are still part of klallIsrael. We don&#8217;t have an IQ admission test to be part of Knesset Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: Baruch Horowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57180</link>
		<dc:creator>Baruch Horowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 04:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57180</guid>
		<description>Thank you Rabbi Menken for bringing this up. It is not an easy question to decide to admit a student, if he or she might dilute the atmosphere  of the school. That is why there are  advisory boards  that are set up      to weigh these important matters, and to advise educational  institutions. 

Standards of Yeshivos have been raised over the past decades. This can  be both a positive and a negative thing. I  know of a Talmid Chochom   who   is  responsible for disseminating a large amount of  Torah who stated that  he would not be able to get into some Yeshivas  today with the standards that currently exist. Also, fifty years ago, New York Yeshivos   purposely went to small towns to recruit  additional  students. On the other hand, there are today Yeshivos that specialize   in only educating people from weaker backgrounds, so this might be one solution.
 
Even as we experience growth in the Torah community, we  should still    try to satisfy the  needs of as many  different students as possible. There was an article about a year ago in the Jewish Observer that made the point that while today we can set our standards high in educational  matters, we should remember that not everyone belongs on one track.    There can be high schools today with no secular studies, as well as    those  that still have.
 
I don't know the exact  answer to how to balance educating weaker   students while still keeping a strong atmosphere in the    school.     But I think that as we raise the bar in Chinuch anew, we    should be aware of  the needs of all students, whether in the same or   in different schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Rabbi Menken for bringing this up. It is not an easy question to decide to admit a student, if he or she might dilute the atmosphere  of the school. That is why there are  advisory boards  that are set up      to weigh these important matters, and to advise educational  institutions. </p>
<p>Standards of Yeshivos have been raised over the past decades. This can  be both a positive and a negative thing. I  know of a Talmid Chochom   who   is  responsible for disseminating a large amount of  Torah who stated that  he would not be able to get into some Yeshivas  today with the standards that currently exist. Also, fifty years ago, New York Yeshivos   purposely went to small towns to recruit  additional  students. On the other hand, there are today Yeshivos that specialize   in only educating people from weaker backgrounds, so this might be one solution.</p>
<p>Even as we experience growth in the Torah community, we  should still    try to satisfy the  needs of as many  different students as possible. There was an article about a year ago in the Jewish Observer that made the point that while today we can set our standards high in educational  matters, we should remember that not everyone belongs on one track.    There can be high schools today with no secular studies, as well as    those  that still have.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the exact  answer to how to balance educating weaker   students while still keeping a strong atmosphere in the    school.     But I think that as we raise the bar in Chinuch anew, we    should be aware of  the needs of all students, whether in the same or   in different schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57179</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 02:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57179</guid>
		<description>I also agree with R Menken. Yeshivos are supposed to educate all Jewish children whose parents are unable to do so. I would be loath to use the "toss them out" attitude in dealing with kids who don't meet a school's mimimum standards-No less than the CI viewed the expulsion of a student as a matter of Dinei Nefashos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also agree with R Menken. Yeshivos are supposed to educate all Jewish children whose parents are unable to do so. I would be loath to use the &#8220;toss them out&#8221; attitude in dealing with kids who don&#8217;t meet a school&#8217;s mimimum standards-No less than the CI viewed the expulsion of a student as a matter of Dinei Nefashos.</p>
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		<title>By: mycroft</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57177</link>
		<dc:creator>mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 21:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57177</guid>
		<description>Agree with Rabbi Menken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Rabbi Menken.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57169</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2006 17:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/05/31/secular-kids-and-religious-schools/#comment-57169</guid>
		<description>I'm going to approach this as the American I am. Forgive me for not sticking to the Israeli-oriented part of this topic.

When I was in high school, the school was swinging to the right hashkafically (and pretty hard, at that). I said to my rebbe at the time, "What's going on? This school used to serve the greater community, yet now we seem only interested in the right-wing bit of it." (This was true - there were non-observant kids who had gone there in the 80's, and even part of the early 90's, I think.)

He responded in an idealistic, but (I think) unrealistic way: "But, they can still send their kids here! It could still serve everyone!"

I thought he was wrong at the time, and I still do. Jews who are non-observant tend not to be just "non-observant Orthodox folks". They're people who usually _don't agree_, rightly or (IMHO) wrongly, with Orthodox ideals and philosophy. This is not just a matter of parents slapping tzitzis and a kippah on their kid before going to school, and, oh yeah, don't tell anyone we eat traife or go to soccer games on Shabbos. This is kids telling their classmates why homosexual sex isn't really a sin, and why women should wear tallesim. If only the biggest issue was lack of observance...

I'm reminded of a play I just saw, G-d of Vengeance. I won't go into details (the well-educated amongst you will know why), but one of the main themes of the play is that you can't separate what goes on upstairs and downstairs - eg, what happens at school, and what happens at home. Maybe some non-Orthodox kids could make the separation. I'm doubtful. It seems like, from the linked blog entry, this is mostly correct. I also got the sense that some of the folks favoring tossing the secular kids were looking for a scapegoat.

If it were up to me, though, I'd accept any kid, and hold them to standards equally. No surprise, given my background, but denying people based on their families is what leads us down that lovely slippery slope to "kollel-only schools" and all sorts of ugly inquisitions into family lives. If they're bad influences, toss them out - but give them a chance, first.

-DMZ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to approach this as the American I am. Forgive me for not sticking to the Israeli-oriented part of this topic.</p>
<p>When I was in high school, the school was swinging to the right hashkafically (and pretty hard, at that). I said to my rebbe at the time, &#8220;What&#8217;s going on? This school used to serve the greater community, yet now we seem only interested in the right-wing bit of it.&#8221; (This was true - there were non-observant kids who had gone there in the 80&#8217;s, and even part of the early 90&#8217;s, I think.)</p>
<p>He responded in an idealistic, but (I think) unrealistic way: &#8220;But, they can still send their kids here! It could still serve everyone!&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought he was wrong at the time, and I still do. Jews who are non-observant tend not to be just &#8220;non-observant Orthodox folks&#8221;. They&#8217;re people who usually _don&#8217;t agree_, rightly or (IMHO) wrongly, with Orthodox ideals and philosophy. This is not just a matter of parents slapping tzitzis and a kippah on their kid before going to school, and, oh yeah, don&#8217;t tell anyone we eat traife or go to soccer games on Shabbos. This is kids telling their classmates why homosexual sex isn&#8217;t really a sin, and why women should wear tallesim. If only the biggest issue was lack of observance&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of a play I just saw, G-d of Vengeance. I won&#8217;t go into details (the well-educated amongst you will know why), but one of the main themes of the play is that you can&#8217;t separate what goes on upstairs and downstairs - eg, what happens at school, and what happens at home. Maybe some non-Orthodox kids could make the separation. I&#8217;m doubtful. It seems like, from the linked blog entry, this is mostly correct. I also got the sense that some of the folks favoring tossing the secular kids were looking for a scapegoat.</p>
<p>If it were up to me, though, I&#8217;d accept any kid, and hold them to standards equally. No surprise, given my background, but denying people based on their families is what leads us down that lovely slippery slope to &#8220;kollel-only schools&#8221; and all sorts of ugly inquisitions into family lives. If they&#8217;re bad influences, toss them out - but give them a chance, first.</p>
<p>-DMZ</p>
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