We are, of course, welcome to reach our own determination of guilt or innocence based upon the evidence at hand, but this does not mean we toss the presumption of innocence (known in Halacha has Havei Dan es Kol Adam L’Kaf Zechut, Judge every man towards the side of merit) out the window. We merely substitute our own judgement for that of a jury.

Even without Dan L’Kaf Zechut, it is incumbent upon us to address all the evidence. As David put it, “A professor who is the Head of the Department of Neurology in Tel Aviv hospital and a professor at T.A. University has testified in writing there were no bite marks or signs of previous abuse.” Taking the police report at face value is a bad idea, when you have an expert saying the exact opposite.

Avrohom Ravitz’s statement is indeed troubling, but only because it is so true. They subjected a 19-year-old father, who had just lost his only son, to ten hours of interrogation with no lawyer present. In an American courtroom this confession would fly like a lead balloon.

Please don’t join in a rush to judgement.

In the “courtroom” of public opinion, you and I can ignore this rule. We can make judgments all the time about the guilt or innocence of those arrested and waiting trial, and even those never arrested. We do this all the time. Hitler, Stalin, Nasser, Arafat, Saddam Hussein have all never been convicted of any crimes - but surely they are guilty, based on what we read in newspapers, magazines, and history books. We can say the same about OJ Simpson, and other contemporary villains who escape guilty verdicts.

I agree that newspapers do need to be read carefully. However, the facts in the Vales case, as reported in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post — respectable, although not perfect newspapers — do on their face, appear accurate, particularly given their official source, the police and the hospital. There were bruise marks on the baby’s body, a bite mark on his neck, brain swelling (edema), and brain bleeding (hemorrage). There was a confession. The 19 year old father said he hated the 3 three month old baby because of a birth defect, his weakened neck muscles, and also his crying kept him awake at neck. He threw him violently against a wall. The combination of all of these facts — and I’m sure there are more — persuades me, even at this early juncture, that the father is criminally responsible for the death of the infant. Is it possible that I and others who share my opinion may, as more facts unfold, be shown to be wrong? Yes, but I doubt it. Fathers do not usually toss very fragile 3 month old babies into the air, as someone suggested; and if they foolishly do, they won’t throw them too high; and if they do that, they don’t usually drop them; and if they drop them, babies do not get these types of death-causing injuries.

So I don’t “get” this article, nor Yaakov Menken’s article. Nor do I “get” MK Avrohom Ravitz’s troubling statement (he belongs to UTJ)about Vales’s confession, something to the effect, Under Israeli police questioning, he might have confessed to killing Jesus.

It is ironic that as a lawyer I’m saying this, but the focus should not be on fine tuning legal arguments, but on fixing the abuse problem in the orthodox community; in making our leading rabbis aware of the truth of the problem; and in making our wider community aware that violent demonstrations are not the answer. Cheshbon hanefesh, yes, as Rabbi Horowitz put it. And to paraphrase Senator Moynihan, we shouldn’t be defining Jewish deviancy down.

per the gedolim, it already has

A professor who is the Head of the Department of Neurology in Tel Aviv hospital and a professor at T.A. University has tesified in writing there were no bite marks or signs of previous abuse!

Have the police or social workers shown any evidence of their claim from medical examiners?

It is significant to note that the letter from the professor was dated April 6, and the “Sacred Cry” of the Rabbis in Yaakov’s post was dated 23 Nissan (April 21). The whole time the young man sat in jail, until April 25.

Why was no mention of this letter made in any newspaper? They mention only “police report that…”

As far as Valis’ confession is concerned: I remember a few years back reading a report about two Israeli Arabs who served years for murder, tried and convicted based on their confession, until they were released after the real murderer was found. This case made a big stink in the press for awhile about the methods used by Israeli police to extract confessions. The press seems to have forgotten this problem when it concerns a hareidi.

That being said, I am highly concerned about the chillul HaShem and its ramifications - including the future difficulties in dealing with the authorities and governments in Israel and elsewhere. Who will take our complaints seriously if we conduct ourselves as wild, uncontrolled hooligans? Indeed, the police probably feel vindicated as a result.

I pray that the death is determined to be accidental.

That’s a response. Insane, but a response. Gil Student went to a left-wing, Modern Orthodox school which was influenced by the standards of American secular high schools. That case had, and has, no bearing here — except that you claim that any failure of Orthodox teenagers is somehow evidence that they are more violent than others: “Why don’t other communities have the same ‘quite unrepresentative’ ‘proportion’ of members with the same propensity?”

Given that the behavior mentioned by Gil is duplicated across US high schools (whether or not it was found in yours), and nowhere in Meah Shearim, you are clearly out to bash rather than making reasoned arguments.

FosterParent, your comments are well taken. As stated previously, a lower, even much lower, incidence of abuse does not mean it doesn’t exist. I know otherwise. But Valis deserves a presumption of innocence like any other defendant, and given the level of threat he posed it was unreasonable to detain him throughout Pesach.

In the other thread someone just posted this link: http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?whichpage=9&topic_id=1867614 . The report says “when it come to single injuries, it is impossible to distinguish between an intentional and accidental injury,” and therefore he cannot make a positive determination. But he makes no mention of bite marks.

For sure, this is true without a doubt. But those of us who have fostered frum children or who work in social service within the chareidi world know first hand that there are those among us that are aggressive and prone to violence.

Our communities’ children marry very young and become young parents. Quite often they are unprepared to deal with the stress of finances, shalom bayis, and crying babies. It is quite miraculous that the overwhelming majority of our young couples do weather these storms, but there are a significant number who don’t.

It is a myth that our communities don’t suffer from these ills. Unfortunately, many of our community leaders believe the myth as well.

When I read this story, my first reaction was that it was probably true. How else could you explain the nature of the reported injuries? Radiologists and Pathologists are trained to recognize signs of abuse. I also was quite puzzled how the gedolim cited could state that the accused was innocent. But Mr. Valis deserves a fair and just investigation into the death of his baby. I hope he gets one.

The reaction that ensued in the streets is unacceptable and a chillul Hashem.

If you read Rabbi Student’s posting, you see the same style of apologetics that Rabbi Menken uses above: “To clarify, is it wrong? Of course! Does it represent bad midos? Without a doubt. Should whoever do it be punished, if possible? Certainly. Is it the worst thing in the world? No. Is it a condemnation of a school or a community? No. It happens in plenty of places.”

And if you read the comments to that posting, you see myself and several other people making the same kind of point that I make above. E.g.: “Man, maybe I should count my blessings that I went to a tough inner-city public high school with gangbangers and the like.”

But we are being asked to believe that the business about finding bite marks on the baby was also made up by the police out of wholecloth. That’s possible, but seems odd. They could coerce a confession without fabricating that.

Check out the Jewish Coalition Against Domestic Abuse (JCADA) at http://www.jcada.org
They report that “domestic abuse occurs in Jewish families at about the same rate as in the general community – about 15% and the abuse takes place among all branches of Judaism and at all socio-economic levels.”

The only difference they report with regard to the Jewish community is “Jewish women tend to stay in abusive relationships 2 to 3 times longer than those in the general population. Non-Jewish women stay from 3-5 years, Jewish women from 7-13 years.”

In the meantime, I will just use this case as a reminder of how important it is to put a child down and leave the premises when we start to feel frustrated.

The school in LA gil refers to is very expensive (16K a year), very modern Orthodox school. You cannot blame charedim for that.

“I agree with him that this type of behavior is a chillul Hashem but I take strong exception to his characterizing this lawless behavior as “our community’s response.”
“Our community”—the community of bnai Torah, of which both Rabbi Horowitz and I are part—did NOT riot and demonstrate, as a community. — Toby Katz

” …. What do you call what happens around U Maryland each time they compete in the NCAA Basketball finals, win or lose? ….It is the responsibility of the charedi community to adhere to a far higher standard. But to point fingers uniquely at the charedim, as if they were worse, is bias. They’re not worse, it’s merely that we should expect them to be better. Despite all Rabbinic calls to the contrary, there are those who act unreasonably, and their behavior disgraces G-d’s Name” –Rabbi Yaakov Menken

I agree with Rabbis Horowitz and Menken, and with Toby Katz(BTW, I am of no relation to Rabbi Horowitz). Notwithstanding the backwards compliment apparent in this statement regarding University students(”reu ma bein bni l’vein chami” ), it is unfortunate that we have to look to the University of Maryland to put the issue in perspective, even if only to point out a media bias. This situation has been going on for far to long, and results in both richuk rechokim and richuk kerovim.

To illustrate, I heard the following incident approximately two years ago at the keynote session of the Thanksgiving convention of a major American Orthodox organization in Yerushalayim, where I happened to be visiting at the time. The keynote speaker, as I recall, related the comments made by his granddaughter when she witnessed the actions of a small, radical fringe group which was protesting the public Charedi gathering held in honor of the visit of an Israeli Torah sage (the protesters– who basically represent no one– were apparently angered by this Gadol’s support of Nachal Charedi). The speaker related that his granddaughter–who was a “good kid”– stated that she felt no pride in being Jewish at that particular time! I think many people would feel likewise(although I would immediately point(’a la Rav Eliezer Silver) to the thousands who did show proper kavod hatorah).

I am wondering if there is anything that lay people in chuzt l’aretz can do to correct this situation. The first thing, I think, is to recognize that any sociological group–Jewish or non-Jewish– has difficulty in separating itself from , and protesting against its own fringe elements. After all, those who burn trash bins are(at least outwardly) Charedi shomrei torah u’mitzvos lemhadrin in every other respect(although Rav Shimon Schwab and others would appear to disagree with this last statement). Parenthetically, for this very reason, I think we should be sympathetic and understanding if and when we ask Lubavitch to protest Meshichists, Satmar to make peace among itself, or even certain non-Jewish communities to speak out against problems which exist in their societies.

I do not mean to lay this at their door step, however, I think that Agudath Israel of America, because of their organizational skills and connection with the charedi Rabbinic and organizational lay leadership, is uniquely positioned to bring improvement to the Israeli scene in this regard . The American Agudah has been successful in the Charedi hasbara effort, and is also significantly involved in trying to make a dent in solving the underlying causes of Israeli Charedi poverty. Perhaps they could work with Israeli Rabbonim and political organizations to brainstorm on how to make, for example, a “Kiddush Hashem campaign” (bumper stickers and all) which will result in the ostracizing of improper public decorum, the same way public slander or pritzus is frowned upon.

Any effective change would have to be done over time, and would probably be incremental and evolutionary in nature. Until such improvement occurs, we should remember, as was pointed out, that the vast majority of bnei torah–whether in Boro Park or Meah Shearim– abhor such conduct. Also, we should focus on the tremendous Charedi Chessed(kindness) that exists both in America and in Israel, as well as on the wise observation of the Gadol who said that he started out in his younger years wanting to change the whole world, but later realized that the only life that he could really control was his very own.

I don’t know what non-Orthodox community you lived in, but among the academic elite at Princeton University I witnessed (and barely avoided) behavior nearly identical to what Gil describes. Where do you think Orthodox kids learned to behave that way, from their Rebbeim? That is a clearly American-style high school hazing, hardly started by, much less particular to, the Orthodox.

The fact is that Orthodox communities are far less violent. Without having any idea which day school Gil attended, I rest assured that it did not have fights as violent or as frequent as what sometimes broke out in the hallways of the prep school from which I graduated. That doesn’t mean violence doesn’t happen, but it does mean, as I just mentioned in the other thread, that any particular suspicious injury is that much more likely to have been of accidental rather than deliberate origin.

It is, therefore, possible the ME reached the wrong conclusion. It is also possible (and not at all unreasonable to believe) that the police, based upon the ME’s conclusion, then coerced a confession which they believed revealed the truth, but is in reality anything but.

It is simply too early to tell, and rushing to judgement is always unwise.

i don’t care about what is likely or not. either there is evidence or there is no evidence (probably not enough). things that are not 100% proved should not play any role in this issue. it is not proved that the police acted illegal. fullstop.

Tzvi :
“I read that R Chaim K based his psak on that ‘fact’ that the wife stood by her husband and supported him. If she thought he killed the baby she would be in revolt.
I also read that at the funeral she spontaneously shouted, ‘I know you are innocent etc.’”
could it be correct? i don’t think so. there are plenty of married murderer who commited offence against their kids. in my eyes this fact wouldn’t proved his innocence. anyway, would it be enough in the eyes of the halacha? i don’t know. but i doubt it. thats why i doubt that this is the only or even the strongest fact on which the decicion of rav kanievsky(if he made one)is based.

What happens the next time a charedi child falls and hurts himself/herself badly. Will Charedi parents hesitate to seek medical attention immediately for fear of being accused of child abuse.
Who is responsible if, G-d forbid, tragedy results.

But as a believing Jew, I have trust that the Doresh Damim will sort out the claims and counterclaims and punish those who are truly guilty and protect the innocent.

The difficulty with this case is that the papers report that there were bite marks on the baby. Is this being disputed?
In a newspaper interview, one of the rabbis defending the father was asked about the abuse and said that the child didn’t die of bite marks. Are we dealing with a situation where the abuse is clear, and the only question is whether the child died accidentally or as a result of abuse?

If the abuse is confirmed, is there a halachic imperative to aid the man in his defense against murder charges (assuming the former is confirmed and the latter in doubt)?

Notice that the focus seems to be less on financial help for the family, and more on other activities (activism?). While it may not have been the intent of the author(s) — leaving aside the question of whether it was in fact authored or approved by the rabbis whose names appear on the bottom — it is not hard to see how this would be taken by some as license to protest, and even to riot. And since, as mentioned by others, there has been an unfortunate history of such behavior in the community, this reaction would not be hard to foresee, and would certainly have been foreseen by our gedolim. Which is why I find it hard to believe they actually were the authors of such a kol koreh. It seems much more likely this was intended by agitators as a rabble-rousing cry. And if so, it worked as they intended! It roused the rabble, with the expected results.

With all due respect, Toby, you are comparing two very different social groups. Whatever the true facts about Chareidim in EY, they are not basically the same social group as Orthodox Jews in Miami.

How you talk. As Torah Jews we believed that 23 rabbis, experts in halakhah, sit in judgement of life-or-death cases, and they hear evidence before making conclusions.

However, many non-Orthodox communities are not so violent. I was raised among such people. I have never participated in, or even witnessed, a violent anti-WTO demonstration, a violent strike, or violent sports fans. Even as an unpopular middle- and high-school student, I never suffered the kind of hazing that many kids in Orthodox high schools received.

So we have an interesting sociological question: when it comes to keeping teenage boys from violence, why don’t the charedi community leaders do at least as well as the white-bread middle-class nonobservant-Jewish subculture where I was raised?

Saying “OK, in this respect the charedi community isn’t too great, but look at all these other communities that are even worse” does not strike me as a winning kiruv strategy. The obvious response would be “I don’t want to join any of those communities, either.”

My problem with statements related to the rarity of abuse in different groups, not just Orthodox or religious, is that for those that are members of such groups and are in abusive situations, it makes them feel stigmatized and less comfortable with coming forward to ask for for help. Unfortunately for the abused, their abuse is real, painful, and dangerous, regardless of how rare to their community abuse may be.

The simple fact that abuse is rare to a community should not have weight as to whether or not a person is guilty of abuse or murdering their child, rather the case should be weighed solely on its own facts. I worry that this isn’t happening in the Valis case.