Comments on: Who’s Listening, Indeed? http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:21:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Beverly Gross http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53609 Beverly Gross Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:30:22 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53609 IT'S THE POLL TAX! The required fee to participate in the election has deterred me--for one--from voting. No matter how small the fee, it would be too much for some to spend; and furthermore, it has risen recently! (Yes, $7.00 is still real money, on my planet. It can buy a meal or 2 or a little fuel or something else. And how is life on your planet? Sure wish I lived there!) No doubt this fee has made many think twice about participating in the election. Therefore, even though said election's results are alleged to represent the views of all Zionist-oriented Jews, they don't. Instead, the results represent the views of those who can spend $7.00 without thinking about it. Can you say "poll tax"? Do you know why any such fee or tax is banned from the elections of all truly democratic nations? Because it makes voting difficult or impossible for those with fewer resources. A poll tax (by any name) in effect deprives some of the right to vote. What may be even worse, it can skew election results in a particular direction--whatever direction is favored by those who have more disposable income! How, if at all, the poll tax may have affected the political outcome of this particular election I won't hazard a guess. In fact, for all I know, those with higher incomes may even tend to vote the same way I would; so maybe my own political cause/s are actually well-served by the poll tax. But I still think it's wrong. Surely there is a better way to finance an election. Almost any way would be more just--and would produce election results that more accurately represent the will of the Jewish people all around the world--than does the poll tax. IT’S THE POLL TAX! The required fee to participate in the election has deterred me–for one–from voting. No matter how small the fee, it would be too much for some to spend; and furthermore, it has risen recently! (Yes, $7.00 is still real money, on my planet. It can buy a meal or 2 or a little fuel or something else. And how is life on your planet? Sure wish I lived there!) No doubt this fee has made many think twice about participating in the election. Therefore, even though said election’s results are alleged to represent the views of all Zionist-oriented Jews, they don’t. Instead, the results represent the views of those who can spend $7.00 without thinking about it. Can you say “poll tax”? Do you know why any such fee or tax is banned from the elections of all truly democratic nations? Because it makes voting difficult or impossible for those with fewer resources. A poll tax (by any name) in effect deprives some of the right to vote. What may be even worse, it can skew election results in a particular direction–whatever direction is favored by those who have more disposable income! How, if at all, the poll tax may have affected the political outcome of this particular election I won’t hazard a guess. In fact, for all I know, those with higher incomes may even tend to vote the same way I would; so maybe my own political cause/s are actually well-served by the poll tax. But I still think it’s wrong. Surely there is a better way to finance an election. Almost any way would be more just–and would produce election results that more accurately represent the will of the Jewish people all around the world–than does the poll tax.

]]> By: Edvallace http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53362 Edvallace Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:42:58 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53362 Steve, "It is interesting, but many people seem to view Sefer Chafetz Chaim not as a sefer halacha by which to improve themselves, but as a weapon which is to be used to thwart discussions on hashkafa and issues which affect every Jew." Sorry but this one won't work. I'm all for discussion, when it's rational and not unceasingingly critical. I have no need to examine the archives of other blogs. So far the bulk of what I've seen from you here is just that and rarely is it described as a rant against the "extremist elements" on the fringe. I can't speak for others but I quote the Chafetz Chaim the same way I try to use him in my daily life: As a guide to help me gauge whether there's any productive purpose in engaging in criticism of other Jews and unless I'm positive that there is, I try very hard [albeit sometimes unsuccessfully] to refrain. I have no doubt that you've been a dedicated activist and far be it from me to question your record on that point. Still, I don't think I'm overextending myself by saying that your name and reputation will not convince others to change their mind the way some others might [think RJBS, Rabbi Salomon, Rabbi Lichtenstein, Rabbi Frand etc.] I therefore question your assertion that your criticisms can serve a useful purpose. I can't give you a theory on why the RZ fared so poorly because I don't know that movement well enough to venture that. I was very surprised to say the least. THe UTJ is also somewhat of a puzzle to me but I'm not as surprised by that because there's been so much shifting of the party over the years in position and leadership that may have played a role. Also, I think that since UTJ doesn't take much of a position on matters of security, that may have trumped the other issues and actually caused UTJ fringe voters to vote for Kadima or Likud. Just random thoughts, not even theories but since you asked. Steve,

“It is interesting, but many people seem to view Sefer Chafetz Chaim not as a sefer halacha by which to improve themselves, but as a weapon which is to be used to thwart discussions on hashkafa and issues which affect every Jew.”

Sorry but this one won’t work. I’m all for discussion, when it’s rational and not unceasingingly critical. I have no need to examine the archives of other blogs. So far the bulk of what I’ve seen from you here is just that and rarely is it described as a rant against the “extremist elements” on the fringe. I can’t speak for others but I quote the Chafetz Chaim the same way I try to use him in my daily life: As a guide to help me gauge whether there’s any productive purpose in engaging in criticism of other Jews and unless I’m positive that there is, I try very hard [albeit sometimes unsuccessfully] to refrain.

I have no doubt that you’ve been a dedicated activist and far be it from me to question your record on that point. Still, I don’t think I’m overextending myself by saying that your name and reputation will not convince others to change their mind the way some others might [think RJBS, Rabbi Salomon, Rabbi Lichtenstein, Rabbi Frand etc.] I therefore question your assertion that your criticisms can serve a useful purpose.

I can’t give you a theory on why the RZ fared so poorly because I don’t know that movement well enough to venture that. I was very surprised to say the least. THe UTJ is also somewhat of a puzzle to me but I’m not as surprised by that because there’s been so much shifting of the party over the years in position and leadership that may have played a role. Also, I think that since UTJ doesn’t take much of a position on matters of security, that may have trumped the other issues and actually caused UTJ fringe voters to vote for Kadima or Likud. Just random thoughts, not even theories but since you asked.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53260 Steve Brizel Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:31:55 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53260 Edvallace-Since we seem to be discussing these issues too often, please feel free to email me off the blog if you would like to discuss the issues. Edvallace-Since we seem to be discussing these issues too often, please feel free to email me off the blog if you would like to discuss the issues.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53256 Steve Brizel Fri, 31 Mar 2006 17:43:50 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53256 Edvallace-Please allow this response re your comments re MO and Negiah. I encountered the infamous phrase "shomer negiah" once and my daughters explained it to me in the sense that in some MO circles, keeping negiah is viewed as a hanhagah, as opposed to a halacha. Your comments are well taken in that regard. I am interested in the discussion on the merits. Your comments that one has to be a recognized Magid or communal activist in order to have an opinion are interesting, but quite wrong factually. I know what a Maggid is, but your term "recognized communal activist" is slightly vague. I hope that you didn't mean the biggest gvir or the person with the most plaques in his house. Can you show me where Klal Yisrael has ever employed such a category as entitling anyone to an opinion? I am not a magid, but I have been active in communal affairs as a layperson for a very long time on the local and national levels. My perspective is that both the MO and Charedi worlds have much to offer many Jews. OTOH, I am sure that I am not the only person who is more than slightly uncomfortable with the extremists who inhabit the fringes of both camps. It is interesting, but many people seem to view Sefer Chafetz Chaim not as a sefer halacha by which to improve themselves, but as a weapon which is to be used to thwart discussions on hashkafa and issues which affect every Jew. These same people quote from it selective;ly about supporting and not insulting communities, especially and alarmingly exclusively their communities. AFAIK, the mitzvah of tochaca , which the Sefer CC discusses extensively, always had an element of constructive criticism built into it. It seems like the height of irony that a sefer that provides a halachic definition and ground rules for such discussions, would be used to ban such discussions. I suggest that you read some of the Archives at Hirhurim. Arevim and elsewhere where I discuss at length my respect for both the Charedi and MO worlds and my lack of respect for their respective extremes. Just curious-do you have an explanation or theory why Shas did so well and UTJ and RZ did not fair so well in the elections? Based upon R Rosenblum and Mrs. Schmidt's columns-the answer is simple. Shas went out and campaigned for votes American style and did not view itself as a one issue party. I suspect that we will see evidence that many Charedim and RZ both voted for Shas. Edvallace-Please allow this response re your comments re MO and Negiah. I encountered the infamous phrase “shomer negiah” once and my daughters explained it to me in the sense that in some MO circles, keeping negiah is viewed as a hanhagah, as opposed to a halacha. Your comments are well taken in that regard.

I am interested in the discussion on the merits. Your comments that one has to be a recognized Magid or communal activist in order to have an opinion are interesting, but quite wrong factually. I know what a Maggid is, but your term “recognized communal activist” is slightly vague. I hope that you didn’t mean the biggest gvir or the person with the most plaques in his house. Can you show me where Klal Yisrael has ever employed such a category as entitling anyone to an opinion? I am not a magid, but I have been active in communal affairs as a layperson for a very long time on the local and national levels. My perspective is that both the MO and Charedi worlds have much to offer many Jews. OTOH, I am sure that I am not the only person who is more than slightly uncomfortable with the extremists who inhabit the fringes of both camps.

It is interesting, but many people seem to view Sefer Chafetz Chaim not as a sefer halacha by which to improve themselves, but as a weapon which is to be used to thwart discussions on hashkafa and issues which affect every Jew. These same people quote from it selective;ly about supporting and not insulting communities, especially and alarmingly exclusively their communities. AFAIK, the mitzvah of tochaca
, which the Sefer CC discusses extensively, always had an element of constructive criticism built into it. It seems like the height of irony that a sefer that provides a halachic definition and ground rules for such discussions, would be used to ban such discussions. I suggest that you read some of the Archives at Hirhurim. Arevim and elsewhere where I discuss at length my respect for both the Charedi and MO worlds and my lack of respect for their respective extremes.

Just curious-do you have an explanation or theory why Shas did so well and UTJ and RZ did not fair so well in the elections? Based upon R Rosenblum and Mrs. Schmidt’s columns-the answer is simple. Shas went out and campaigned for votes American style and did not view itself as a one issue party. I suspect that we will see evidence that many Charedim and RZ both voted for Shas.

]]> By: Edvallace http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53135 Edvallace Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:04:15 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53135 Steve, Clearly you missed my point. I was/am not interested in debating the de/merits of OU/YU/NCSY or RZ. I was simply pointing out that there is much to discuss and criticize should one truly be seeking the Emes. Believe me, if you want that debate I could go on for hours and provide more than anecdotal evidence [I could do the same for Hareidim as well] but I don't see why I should or would. The fact that I have rarely seen you offer any such criticism which leads me to believe that you are not as virtuous in your motives as you may believe. I can't help but wonder whether your unceasing criticisms of the Hareidi public are not motivated by something other than Middas HaEmes, possibly even Sinas Chinam? You wouldn't be the first MO person to engage in that toward Hareidim but I thought I'd bring it to your attention that even if my perception is untrue, you're doing a terrific job of making me [and a whole lot of others] think so. I can assure you that there is no Hetter whatsoever to criticize other religious Jews and movements indisciminately. Yours is not a voice that people recognize and pay heed to. You are not a recognized Maggid, communal activist or anything else that would lend a constructive label to your criticisms. Thus, I believe that what you're engaging in is Lashon Harrah. You seem to be a learned person. Take a look at the Sefer Chafetz Chaim and you'll see that my point is a valid one. Steve,

Clearly you missed my point. I was/am not interested in debating the de/merits of OU/YU/NCSY or RZ. I was simply pointing out that there is much to discuss and criticize should one truly be seeking the Emes. Believe me, if you want that debate I could go on for hours and provide more than anecdotal evidence [I could do the same for Hareidim as well] but I don’t see why I should or would. The fact that I have rarely seen you offer any such criticism which leads me to believe that you are not as virtuous in your motives as you may believe. I can’t help but wonder whether your unceasing criticisms of the Hareidi public are not motivated by something other than Middas HaEmes, possibly even Sinas Chinam? You wouldn’t be the first MO person to engage in that toward Hareidim but I thought I’d bring it to your attention that even if my perception is untrue, you’re doing a terrific job of making me [and a whole lot of others] think so.
I can assure you that there is no Hetter whatsoever to criticize other religious Jews and movements indisciminately. Yours is not a voice that people recognize and pay heed to. You are not a recognized Maggid, communal activist or anything else that would lend a constructive label to your criticisms. Thus, I believe that what you’re engaging in is Lashon Harrah.
You seem to be a learned person. Take a look at the Sefer Chafetz Chaim and you’ll see that my point is a valid one.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53107 Steve Brizel Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:05:09 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53107 Edvallace-I take exeption to your claims re NCSY. The OU and NCSY ( along with Chabad) were long into kiruv all over North America way before the Charedi world decided that kiruv was important. Although R Stolper was encouraged by R Y Hutner ZTL to stay in NCSY early on, R Stolper also sought the guidance from all of the Gdolim in the USA. One (well-known) mistake does not constitute "many stains on its record." The RZ crowd elevated settlement over all other mitzvos in terms of importance and improperly utilized Holocaust rhetoric. It also utterly failed to develope a single ally within the Israeli establishment and was knifed in the back, if I can use R Meidan's phrase-by its secular Zionist allies who it always sought alliances as opposed to the Charedim. It then ceased being a bridge to the secular world. I think that RZ always has ignored even temporary, one issue alliances with Charedim-look at the huge Tefillah rally-zero RZ participation, etc. OTOH, if R Menken is correct, there are Charedim such as Slonimer Chasidim and others who realize that the Charedi world could have been more supportive during the disengagement, as opposed to raising funds now. As far as negiah and MO are concerned, I am not sure exactly what you mean. Here is a stab at a response. NCSY never has had social dancing. I think that most MO organizations have long ceased having mixed dancing, etc. Mixed dancing also seems to have died a natural death in mainstream MO circles. Those MO oriented places that still have mixed dancing are just not MO by any definition of the term. More women in the MO world are adhering to Tznius ( i.e. attire, hair covering,etc) than in the past. OTOH, too many MO families still have no problems with social interactions of teenagers of the opposite genders on a non tachlis basis. That is a problem, but I think that the real issues in MO are the singles crisis and the general future of MO's next generation , about which I haven't seen MO leadership come up with a meaningful solution . Too many MO are more interested in railing against the"move to the right" as opposed to their kids dropping observance altogether after attending a secular college in the middle of nowhere with no meaningful Torah presence either on campus or nearby. It is nice that the OU has a Torah initiative for college students in this predicament, but noone in the OU world dares to raise the issue of whether exposing one's neshamah to such an atmosphere is proper. With respect to YU, I think that RIETS has a fantastic gallaxy of Roshei Yeshivah with a valid Mesorah. The Batei Medrashim are packed and the kolleleit there can learn with the best of any yeshiva. Obviously, though, neither Lakewood nor RIETS are the only places where one can learn Torah on a high level. Edvallace-I take exeption to your claims re NCSY. The OU and NCSY ( along with Chabad) were long into kiruv all over North America way before the Charedi world decided that kiruv was important. Although R Stolper was encouraged by R Y Hutner ZTL to stay in NCSY early on, R Stolper also sought the guidance from all of the Gdolim in the USA. One (well-known) mistake does not constitute “many stains on its record.”

The RZ crowd elevated settlement over all other mitzvos in terms of importance and improperly utilized Holocaust rhetoric. It also utterly failed to develope a single ally within the Israeli establishment and was knifed in the back, if I can use R Meidan’s phrase-by its secular Zionist allies who it always sought alliances as opposed to the Charedim. It then ceased being a bridge to the secular world. I think that RZ always has ignored even temporary, one issue alliances with Charedim-look at the huge Tefillah rally-zero RZ participation, etc. OTOH, if R Menken is correct, there are Charedim such as Slonimer Chasidim and others who realize that the Charedi world could have been more supportive during the disengagement, as opposed to raising funds now.

As far as negiah and MO are concerned, I am not sure exactly what you mean. Here is a stab at a response. NCSY never has had social dancing. I think that most MO organizations have long ceased having mixed dancing, etc. Mixed dancing also seems to have died a natural death in mainstream MO circles. Those MO oriented places that still have mixed dancing are just not MO by any definition of the term. More women in the MO world are adhering to Tznius ( i.e. attire, hair covering,etc) than in the past. OTOH, too many MO families still have no problems with social interactions of teenagers of the opposite genders on a non tachlis basis. That is a problem, but I think that the real issues in MO are the singles crisis and the general future of MO’s next generation , about which I haven’t seen MO leadership come up with a meaningful solution . Too many MO are more interested in railing against the”move to the right” as opposed to their kids dropping observance altogether after attending a secular college in the middle of nowhere with no meaningful Torah presence either on campus or nearby. It is nice that the OU has a Torah initiative for college students in this predicament, but noone in the OU world dares to raise the issue of whether exposing one’s neshamah to such an atmosphere is proper.

With respect to YU, I think that RIETS has a fantastic gallaxy of Roshei Yeshivah with a valid Mesorah. The Batei Medrashim are packed and the kolleleit there can learn with the best of any yeshiva. Obviously, though, neither Lakewood nor RIETS are the only places where one can learn Torah on a high level.

]]> By: Edvallace http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53088 Edvallace Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:38:02 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53088 Steve, If it's Middas HaEmes you aspire to, you just might consider admitting that the RCA/OU/YU crowd have a long way to go when it comes to having met that standard. 1] NCSY is a fine organization with many stains on its record 2] Leaving the RZ crowd out to dry when push came to shove by the disengagement. Instead you rewrite history to the effect that the RZ movement didn't explain it's case well enough to them and instead blame the Hareidi's for not expressing enough anguish over their plight! What a bunch of nonsense and you know it. 3] While being modern is a nice ideal to strive for, it's no excuse for the rampant trampling of the laws of Negiah that's so widespread in the circles of MO. Have you ever written about that? Not that I've seen and I've seen alot of you because you're everywhere on the internet. I could go on but I won't because my intent is not to bash the MO. I love every Jew and rather than "placing my head in the sand and liking apple pie" I actually try to see the positive even in the movements that I disagree with on certain ideological points instead of simply blogging the "truth" all day about a sect of Judaism that arouses my ire. If Middas HaEmes is your goal, you'd apply it equally to all sects of Judaism. As it stands today, your unmitigated dislike of all things Hareidi is not offered in the pursuit of Middas HaEmes but rather in the name of Sinas Chinam. I'm sorry if my tone is harsh but it's hard to sit and watch you pound at a vital segment of our community on a daily basis and say nothing. Middas HaEmes will only get you so far. At some point Lashon Harah kicks in and what you write and say more than meets that criteria. Steve,

If it’s Middas HaEmes you aspire to, you just might consider admitting that the RCA/OU/YU crowd have a long way to go when it comes to having met that standard.
1] NCSY is a fine organization with many stains on its record
2] Leaving the RZ crowd out to dry when push came to shove by the disengagement. Instead you rewrite history to the effect that the RZ movement didn’t explain it’s case well enough to them and instead blame the Hareidi’s for not expressing enough anguish over their plight! What a bunch of nonsense and you know it.
3] While being modern is a nice ideal to strive for, it’s no excuse for the rampant trampling of the laws of Negiah that’s so widespread in the circles of MO. Have you ever written about that? Not that I’ve seen and I’ve seen alot of you because you’re everywhere on the internet.
I could go on but I won’t because my intent is not to bash the MO. I love every Jew and rather than “placing my head in the sand and liking apple pie” I actually try to see the positive even in the movements that I disagree with on certain ideological points instead of simply blogging the “truth” all day about a sect of Judaism that arouses my ire. If Middas HaEmes is your goal, you’d apply it equally to all sects of Judaism. As it stands today, your unmitigated dislike of all things Hareidi is not offered in the pursuit of Middas HaEmes but rather in the name of Sinas Chinam.
I’m sorry if my tone is harsh but it’s hard to sit and watch you pound at a vital segment of our community on a daily basis and say nothing. Middas HaEmes will only get you so far. At some point Lashon Harah kicks in and what you write and say more than meets that criteria.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53075 Steve Brizel Tue, 28 Mar 2006 03:53:27 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53075 EdWallace-Some people like apple pie and pretending that everything is fine in our little world. I think that there is a midas haemes that is paramount and must be pursued at all costs, even if it forces all of us, regardless of our orientation, to think about some of the issues in our communities. EdWallace-Some people like apple pie and pretending that everything is fine in our little world. I think that there is a midas haemes that is paramount and must be pursued at all costs, even if it forces all of us, regardless of our orientation, to think about some of the issues in our communities.

]]> By: Edvallace http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53058 Edvallace Mon, 27 Mar 2006 20:16:44 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53058 Suddenly everyones a critic! :-) I'm not sure what "good company" you're referring to [if its then endless number of malcontents who blog daily about the weaknesses of whatever person/party they're against I'm not sure that's really good company] but I'm far more impressed with someone who can find good things to say about each camp than someone who makes a career out of criticizing all parties. Maybe it's just me but I find that criticism ceases to be constructive when you know to expect it with regularity. For the record, I think you're knowledgable and insightful but I take issue with self-appointed critics at large. Suddenly everyones a critic! :-)
I’m not sure what “good company” you’re referring to [if its then endless number of malcontents who blog daily about the weaknesses of whatever person/party they're against I'm not sure that's really good company] but I’m far more impressed with someone who can find good things to say about each camp than someone who makes a career out of criticizing all parties. Maybe it’s just me but I find that criticism ceases to be constructive when you know to expect it with regularity.
For the record, I think you’re knowledgable and insightful but I take issue with self-appointed critics at large.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53051 Steve Brizel Mon, 27 Mar 2006 16:36:32 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53051 Edwallace- I stand by my posts-which at times criticize the fever swamps of the Charedi and the MO worlds-IOW-the extremes. I have been criticiazed for bashing both POCs. I think that my iconoclastic posture places me in very good company. Edwallace- I stand by my posts-which at times criticize the fever swamps of the Charedi and the MO worlds-IOW-the extremes. I have been criticiazed for bashing both POCs. I think that my iconoclastic posture places me in very good company.

]]> By: Edvallace http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53035 Edvallace Sun, 26 Mar 2006 23:24:52 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53035 Steve, "Some MO types think that I bash MO too harshly." Lord knows that I don't follow you around the various blogs you populate so I claim no experetise in this area, but from what I've seen here and elsewhere, that statement leaves me scratching my head. Any criticism I've ever seen you level against the MO seems of the "Boy are they amazing, I just wish they'd realize it" kind. Maybe the MO's are just really sensitive. ;-) Steve,

“Some MO types think that I bash MO too harshly.”

Lord knows that I don’t follow you around the various blogs you populate so I claim no experetise in this area, but from what I’ve seen here and elsewhere, that statement leaves me scratching my head. Any criticism I’ve ever seen you level against the MO seems of the “Boy are they amazing, I just wish they’d realize it” kind. Maybe the MO’s are just really sensitive. ;-)

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53030 Steve Brizel Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:20:31 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53030 Michoel-Join the club. Some MO types think that I bash MO too harshly. The fact is that I love the best of the Charedi an and MO worlds . They both enhance my Avodas HaShem. I reject the extremes of both and completely comfortable in saying so. Michoel-Join the club. Some MO types think that I bash MO too harshly. The fact is that I love the best of the Charedi an and MO worlds . They both enhance my Avodas HaShem. I reject the extremes of both and completely comfortable in saying so.

]]> By: Michoel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53025 Michoel Sun, 26 Mar 2006 15:37:53 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53025 "You seem to have missed my overall point." If you say so. But I don't entirely blame myself. You seem to find a lot of enjoyment in Charedi-baiting. Maybe I am being too sensitive but that is my perception. “You seem to have missed my overall point.”
If you say so. But I don’t entirely blame myself. You seem to find a lot of enjoyment in Charedi-baiting. Maybe I am being too sensitive but that is my perception.

]]> By: BobF http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53020 BobF Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:57:31 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53020 There are no greater “zionists” than haredim, who pray daily and fervently for the Jewish return to Zion; who are so disproportionately overrepresented in the rolls of both those who make aliyah and those who visit Israel regularly; and who are so strongly supportive of ensuring Israel’s security >>>>>>>> As long as you don't serve in the army, you cannot consider yourself zionist. You certainly aren't supportive of ensuring Israel's security. I know thats not you main point but had to say it. There are no greater “zionists” than haredim, who pray daily and fervently for the Jewish return to Zion; who are so disproportionately overrepresented in the rolls of both those who make aliyah and those who visit Israel regularly; and who are so strongly supportive of ensuring Israel’s security
>>>>>>>>
As long as you don’t serve in the army, you cannot consider yourself zionist. You certainly aren’t supportive of ensuring Israel’s security. I know thats not you main point but had to say it.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53001 Steve Brizel Fri, 24 Mar 2006 20:30:09 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-53001 Michoel-ever hear of the Chaftez Chaim or R Elchanan Zicronam Livracha. They certainly believed that the Holocaust was enroute because of assimilation, etc, The Nazis murdered 6,000,000 Jews, many of whom were Shomrei Torah uMitzvos and all of whom died Al Kiddush HaShem. The Communists destroyed Jewish souls, but never made genocide as devised in Mein Kamph a state policy. Despite all of the horrors of the Gulag and the Siberian camps, nothing that the Soviets did matched the Nazis. That is simply a fact of history. You seem to have missed my overall point. It is not an issue of liking or disliking other frum Jews. The issue is whether one can discuss how Daas Torah has functioned on a practical level without the entire discussion being barricaded by an assertion that Daas Torah bars such a dicussion. There is no question that such an assertion is raised routinely on the issues of the relationship between the leaders of Torah Jewry and many of the forces that interacted with their lives in the 19th and 20th Centuries and how the stances of the Gdolim affected their communities. I am not saying that we can indulge in 20/20 hindsight, but we should be able to discuss what happened in the past so that we learn from it and never allow it to happen again. Claims that frum Jews do not like other other Frum Jews or that are based in historical revisionism hardly aid the discussion. Michoel-ever hear of the Chaftez Chaim or R Elchanan Zicronam Livracha. They certainly believed that the Holocaust was enroute because of assimilation, etc, The Nazis murdered 6,000,000 Jews, many of whom were Shomrei Torah uMitzvos and all of whom died Al Kiddush HaShem. The Communists destroyed Jewish souls, but never made genocide as devised in Mein Kamph a state policy. Despite all of the horrors of the Gulag and the Siberian camps, nothing that the Soviets did matched the Nazis. That is simply a fact of history.

You seem to have missed my overall point. It is not an issue of liking or disliking other frum Jews. The issue is whether one can discuss how Daas Torah has functioned on a practical level without the entire discussion being barricaded by an assertion that Daas Torah bars such a dicussion. There is no question that such an assertion is raised routinely on the issues of the relationship between the leaders of Torah Jewry and many of the forces that interacted with their lives in the 19th and 20th Centuries and how the stances of the Gdolim affected their communities. I am not saying that we can indulge in 20/20 hindsight, but we should be able to discuss what happened in the past so that we learn from it and never allow it to happen again. Claims that frum Jews do not like other other Frum Jews or that are based in historical revisionism hardly aid the discussion.

]]> By: Michoel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52978 Michoel Fri, 24 Mar 2006 13:37:40 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52978 ...Charedi world insists that its Gdolim “knew” that the Holocaust was enroute for a variety of reasons... I am aware only of Rav Shimom Schwab's encounter with the Chafetz Chaim. Please provide a makor to substantiate this statement. ..One should add that certain Gdolim and communal leaders even viewed Nazism as preferable to Communism... And even now, prove to me that it is not so. ...When you read enough arguments like that... Steve, when I read your many argumets, I am reminded that there are some frum Jews that seem to not particualry like other frum Jews. …Charedi world insists that its Gdolim “knew” that the Holocaust was enroute for a variety of reasons… I am aware only of Rav Shimom Schwab’s encounter with the Chafetz Chaim. Please provide a makor to substantiate this statement.

..One should add that certain Gdolim and communal leaders even viewed Nazism as preferable to Communism… And even now, prove to me that it is not so.

…When you read enough arguments like that… Steve, when I read your many argumets, I am reminded that there are some frum Jews that seem to not particualry like other frum Jews.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52962 Steve Brizel Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:27:29 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52962 Charlie B Hall-The WZO definitely has an impact on funding RZ and MO mosdos in Israel-whether Yeshivos hesder, some seminaries NCSY programs or such seemingly benign groups as Amit or Emunah. A poor showing would have put these programs at risk or caused them to raise tuition even higher than it had already been raised because of cutbacks to the religious sector by Sharon & Co. Charlie B Hall-The WZO definitely has an impact on funding RZ and MO mosdos in Israel-whether Yeshivos hesder, some seminaries NCSY programs or such seemingly benign groups as Amit or Emunah. A poor showing would have put these programs at risk or caused them to raise tuition even higher than it had already been raised because of cutbacks to the religious sector by Sharon & Co.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52961 Steve Brizel Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:22:32 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52961 Michoel-You may be right re the long term. Yet, despite the Reform's tooting their horns over the results, the Religious Zionists did quite well and finished quite respectably. In any event, the R and C walked out of the Synagogue Council of America, because they knew that either the OU or the RCA would veto or threaten to veto anything that remotely smacked of "pluralism." Although the SCA died back in the early 1990s, I see no effort whatsover to effecuate a revival of this group. The Jewish Council for Public Affairs, which also used to be fairly anti-O, has even retreated from O bashing because of the OU's very skillful participation therein. Michoel-You may be right re the long term. Yet, despite the Reform’s tooting their horns over the results, the Religious Zionists did quite well and finished quite respectably. In any event, the R and C walked out of the Synagogue Council of America, because they knew that either the OU or the RCA would veto or threaten to veto anything that remotely smacked of “pluralism.” Although the SCA died back in the early 1990s, I see no effort whatsover to effecuate a revival of this group. The Jewish Council for Public Affairs, which also used to be fairly anti-O, has even retreated from O bashing because of the OU’s very skillful participation therein.

]]> By: Steve Brizel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52960 Steve Brizel Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:15:57 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52960 Michoel-My point re El Elamein was that the threat to the yishuv ended for any and all purposes at that point. I am sure that I am not the only person blogging here who believes that an independent Jewish state that was supported by all factions of the Jewish community would have had an open door policy in a manner similar to the Law of Return. Of course, Charedim complain about the pre war dominance of the quotas by the secular Zionists. Yet,despite the genuineness of that complaint, participation, as opposed to boycotting the same, might have led to a far greater quota for Charedim. Obviously, one cannot pass judgments on Gdolim, but the fact that R Neuberger ZTL participated in non-Charedi governed groups and was able to increase respect for his yeshiva shows the benefit of doing so. It really all boils down to the same issue-the Charedi world insists that its Gdolim "knew" that the Holocaust was enroute for a variety of reasons, yet opposed participation with Zionist groups and then after the war blamed the Zionists for the Holocaust and claimed that noone really took Hitler Yimach Shmo vZicro seriously. One should add that certain Gdolim and communal leaders even viewed Nazism as preferable to Communism ( see the letters in the back of D M Shapiro's bio of the Seredei Aish). On top of that, the Charedim claim that despite the fact that 6,000,000 Jews died, they succeeeded in rescuing some of their leaders. When you read enough arguments like thatm you can't help but reminded of an old movie title which sort of describes the historical spin placed by the Charedim on that entire historical epoc-"How I Won The War." Michoel-My point re El Elamein was that the threat to the yishuv ended for any and all purposes at that point. I am sure that I am not the only person blogging here who believes that an independent Jewish state that was supported by all factions of the Jewish community would have had an open door policy in a manner similar to the Law of Return. Of course, Charedim complain about the pre war dominance of the quotas by the secular Zionists. Yet,despite the genuineness of that complaint, participation, as opposed to boycotting the same, might have led to a far greater quota for Charedim. Obviously, one cannot pass judgments on Gdolim, but the fact that R Neuberger ZTL participated in non-Charedi governed groups and was able to increase respect for his yeshiva shows the benefit of doing so.
It really all boils down to the same issue-the Charedi world insists that its Gdolim “knew” that the Holocaust was enroute for a variety of reasons, yet opposed participation with Zionist groups and then after the war blamed the Zionists for the Holocaust and claimed that noone really took Hitler Yimach Shmo vZicro seriously. One should add that certain Gdolim and communal leaders even viewed Nazism as preferable to Communism ( see the letters in the back of D M Shapiro’s bio of the Seredei Aish). On top of that, the Charedim claim that despite the fact that 6,000,000 Jews died, they succeeeded in rescuing some of their leaders. When you read enough arguments like thatm you can’t help but reminded of an old movie title which sort of describes the historical spin placed by the Charedim on that entire historical epoc-”How I Won The War.”

]]> By: Michoel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52934 Michoel Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:27:14 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52934 Getting back to WZO... There is lots of good practical reason to completly ignore this election, aside from shitos. All camps in Israel agree that most of the societal animosity between the differnt camps is a result of one party percieving that the other party is abusing the democratic process to acieve its selfish ends. (That is not to say that there shouldn't be charedi or religious parties in the elections. I think there should be but that is another discussion.) But we need to think very carefully before bringing the intensified strief of EY to the US. What do we need it for? Just let the WZO fade into irrelevance and die a slow death, as it is doing. If 100,000 charedim would up and vote tomorrow, Eric Yoffee will screaming at the top of his lungs to get out the Reform vote. We don't need it. Getting back to WZO… There is lots of good practical reason to completly ignore this election, aside from shitos. All camps in Israel agree that most of the societal animosity between the differnt camps is a result of one party percieving that the other party is abusing the democratic process to acieve its selfish ends. (That is not to say that there shouldn’t be charedi or religious parties in the elections. I think there should be but that is another discussion.) But we need to think very carefully before bringing the intensified strief of EY to the US. What do we need it for? Just let the WZO fade into irrelevance and die a slow death, as it is doing. If 100,000 charedim would up and vote tomorrow, Eric Yoffee will screaming at the top of his lungs to get out the Reform vote. We don’t need it.

]]> By: Michoel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52933 Michoel Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:18:57 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52933 Mycroft, You are a kind person. In point of fact, they repeatedly blame the Charedi Gedolim for being a major factor in the Holocaust accuring and they often attach malicious intent. "They saved themselves while their followers perished." They were only concerned about saving the Yeshiva talmidim but couldn't have cared less about the rest of the Jewish people." This is standard fare in come circles. It is rishus. Steve, "any threat to the Yishuv ended in 1942 with the British victory at El Alamein" V' al ken? And therefore the Charedim gedolim should have to told the Yidden in Europe to pack up and take an El Al flight in 1942.. Mycroft,
You are a kind person. In point of fact, they repeatedly blame the Charedi Gedolim for being a major factor in the Holocaust accuring and they often attach malicious intent. “They saved themselves while their followers perished.” They were only concerned about saving the Yeshiva talmidim but couldn’t have cared less about the rest of the Jewish people.” This is standard fare in come circles. It is rishus.

Steve,
“any threat to the Yishuv ended in 1942 with the British victory at El Alamein” V’ al ken?
And therefore the Charedim gedolim should have to told the Yidden in Europe to pack up and take an El Al flight in 1942..

]]> By: Jewish Observer http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52931 Jewish Observer Thu, 23 Mar 2006 05:26:45 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52931 "When a massive rally in support of Israel was held in Washington, no one was asking any group to sign on to any statement of beliefs. And yet the Agudah somehow managed not to endorse it." you can't fault the agudah for that. it could be the agudah felt uncomfortable because the idea was conceived by non bnei torah. “When a massive rally in support of Israel was held in Washington, no one was asking any group to sign on to any statement of beliefs. And yet the Agudah somehow managed not to endorse it.”

you can’t fault the agudah for that. it could be the agudah felt uncomfortable because the idea was conceived by non bnei torah.

]]> By: mycroft http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52927 mycroft Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:36:39 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52927 "the Damascus one of 1840 for example’ was started by French monks, not Arabs. Give blame where blame is due." True but who did the rioting Frenchmen or Arabs? “the Damascus one of 1840 for example’

was started by French monks, not Arabs. Give blame where blame is due.”
True but who did the rioting Frenchmen or Arabs?

]]> By: mycroft http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52926 mycroft Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:30:55 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52926 "We mourn the destruction of the bayit, not the medinah." Probably a debate of Rishonim of whether we fasted on Tisha Bav in the time of the 2nd Beis Hamikdash “We mourn the destruction of the bayit, not the medinah.”
Probably a debate of Rishonim of whether we fasted on Tisha Bav in the time of the 2nd Beis Hamikdash

]]> By: Boruch Horowitz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52925 Boruch Horowitz Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:05:07 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/03/21/whos-listening-indeed/#comment-52925 While I don't think that there is much purpose in engaging in theoretical speculation, I am wondering if the Charedi community would be able to modify part of “The Jerusalem Program” in order to recognize the reality that the State of Israel plays in Jewish life, how such a text would read. R' Sadiah Gaon has famously observed that we are a nation only by virtue of the Torah. However, the State of Israel, while perhaps not "central" in terms of its spiritual accomplishments , certainly plays an important role in Jewish life, similar to the role played by the government during the period of the Bayis Sheni(Second Commonwealth). This is despite the fact that the Israeli government, like its predecessor during the Bayis Sheni era, is by no means an ideal Torah government, or even a true political Zionist government (hence, Amona). Thus, I believe that R' Yaakov Kaminetsky, as well as others, has stated that the 1967 victory could be viewed as a positive occurrence in our history. Indeed, I was at a lecture where I witnessed a charedi kiruv professional using the above approach to show the guidance of Hashem in recent times. Assuming that there is nothing intrinsically objectionable in participating in the vote, and if the Charedi community could have a substitute text for the Jerusalem Program(which would also need to be accepted by the broader Jewish Community), what might such a text read? While I don’t think that there is much purpose in engaging in theoretical speculation, I am wondering if the Charedi community would be able to modify part of “The Jerusalem Program” in order to recognize the reality that the State of Israel plays in Jewish life, how such a text would read.

R’ Sadiah Gaon has famously observed that we are a nation only by virtue of the Torah. However, the State of Israel, while perhaps not “central” in terms of its spiritual accomplishments , certainly plays an important role in Jewish life, similar to the role played by the government during the period of the Bayis Sheni(Second Commonwealth). This is despite the fact that the Israeli government, like its predecessor during the Bayis Sheni era, is by no means an ideal Torah government, or even a true political Zionist government (hence, Amona).

Thus, I believe that R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky, as well as others, has stated that the 1967 victory could be viewed as a positive occurrence in our history. Indeed, I was at a lecture where I witnessed a charedi kiruv professional using the above approach to show the guidance of Hashem in recent times. Assuming that there is nothing intrinsically objectionable in participating in the vote, and if the Charedi community could have a substitute text for the Jerusalem Program(which would also need to be accepted by the broader Jewish Community), what might such a text read?

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