Comments on: Parasites

By: Jewish Observer

Jewish Observer — Fri, 10 Mar 2006 13:07:30 +0000

“posters who deride the value of any chareidi volunteer efforts”

derision is never good, and all positi9ve efforts should be lauded. At the same time I think the point in question is to what degree one who is part of a society can unilaterally decide what his communal service shuold be, versus working within the parameters of the system. To use a wise guy example - I can make great efforts in sincerely praying for the welfare of my kids’ (charedi) school, but I am pretty sure they will want me to abide by their system and give them tuition money every month.

By: Toby Katz

Toby Katz — Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:31:58 +0000

I wonder how many of the posters who deride the value of any chareidi volunteer efforts — done by men and women of all ages, from adolescents to the elderly — as long as their young men do not serve in the Israeli army — how many of those sanctimonious bigshots actually served in the Israeli army themselves, and how many live in America and are armchair critics?

By: Joel Rich

Joel Rich — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:02:09 +0000

Bob, I understand the ideal and my clearly was a bit tongue in cheek but we live in a real not ideal world and I worry that the results of acting on this idealism could be negative - I hope my concerns are baseless.
KT

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:29:30 +0000

Joel, those who have not bought into Torah would not buy into an appeal based on Torah. The groups do not have a common language as to what “civic duties” comprises in today’s big picture. The commenters you were reacting to
were trying to express an ideal—what one would tell a caring, inclusive government—but would be highly
unlikely to move the current government. The current government is moved by fear of large countries and a
desire to add to its leaders’ individual power and money, as opposed to its own civic duties.

As for “clearly”, what is clear to you may not be clear to others.

By: joel rich

joel rich — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:54:35 +0000

Interesting assumptions you’ve added Bob (though clearly moving further away from any parallel with the modern day State of Israel). But you didn’t answer my question, what would the ultimate result be bderech hateva?
KT

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:07:50 +0000

If Joel Rich’s Republic of Jahupetz despised some sector of its society, it would do everything possible both to exclude that sector permanently from a leadership role and to ridicule that sector for its own exclusion. A decision to fashion the Jehupitz army (and its society in general) so as to achieve social objectives at odds with the Divine law championed by that sector is a decision to exclude. Should that sector now ask for justice along the lines that the Divine law dictates, or should it pretend that it shares the Republic’s own view in order to curry favor with the ruling oligarchy? Which would be the choice of someone with self-respect? What would you do?

Not to mention that the sector in question first set up shop in Jahupetz long before there was a Republic.

By: david

david — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:02:30 +0000

Jewish Observer, since you’re anonomous anyway, maybe you can list your volunteer activities and the background
of the people that they benefit.

By: Joel Rich

Joel Rich — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:17:14 +0000

Everyone is entitled to there opinion, I would just point out that a number of the commenters seem to be advocating a “we’ll involve ourselves with “your” societial needs (e.g. chesed,army) to the extent we feel we can and unless you make major changes (i.e. allow us to define the terms of engagement and the political results)we will not involve ourselves in what others would call basic civic duties. As a thought experiment imagine this was the case in the Republic of Jahupetz, bderech hateva what would the results be?
KT

By: Zalman

Zalman — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:02:09 +0000

My unscientific sense is that all of the Israeli Haredi communal organizations touted here began in response to a need within the Haredi community. And initially, these organizations probably served only the Haredi community. (This is itself unsurprising; all of us probably respond best to the needs of those closest to us. Also, the needs of individuals in the Haredi community intensifies this trend.) Once the communal service was established, Haredi leaders had the good sense not to reject the non Haredi who came to their door. Still a good thing. But the existence of these organizations does not prove to me that the Haredi community have arrived at the ideal “areivut”: seeing all of klal yisrael as one – even in communal matters.

By: mycroft

mycroft — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:00:15 +0000

“Anyone who claims it’s not a risk to their Yiddishkeit is fooling themselves. Hesder units certainly have it better and some actually grow in their observance but unfortunately many don’t. I don’t have the numbers on this but there’s no such thing as an insignificat minority in this instance.”

A bigger risk than for the time period in general? The army years are a big risk factor to go “off the Derech” for those who are nowhere near an Army eg US.

By: Chareidi Leumi

Chareidi Leumi — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:51:21 +0000

“Anyone who tells you that they were not religiously adversely affected by their army experience is lying”.

Doron is correct, the Israeli army as it is constructed today is a MAJOR obsticle to a religious soldier. Only the strongest can remain unaffected. There are a few exceptions like Nachal Chareidi which so far is a good environment (you can get thrown in jail for lashon hara!) but overall it is not a condusive environment.

The religious community should demand MASSIVE reforms before it sends its children to such an environment. (and this is besides the fact that the army puts Jewish lives needlessly at risk to protect “innocent” Arab civilians.

By: mycroft

mycroft — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:13:46 +0000

““I personally know many in the Chareidi camp who would have been only too glad to join were it truly an option”

This is very encouraging. Imagine the positive PR were there a campaign by such chareidim publicly stating their solidarity with those already in the army and articulaating their wish to join if they only could. Seriously, this would be a tremendous step forward and kiddush hashem. Is there truly such a critical mass? (I would love to believe the answer is yes)”

I would like to believe the answer is yes-but I don’t believe the answer is yes. In general chareidim outside the chareidi leumi camp wish the State had never come into existence-they have a lot of Jewish tradition on their side. Certainly 300 years ago the overwheelming per cent of Jews essentially believed the Gemarah of Sholosh shvuot as being a halachik piece rather than a midrashic piece. Thus most who wished it never came into existence certainly wouldn’t want to fight for such a State.
The fact that they are separating themselves from the Zibbur-does not bother them. They believe they are correct and will outsurvive the evil or sometimes only misguided Zionim.

By: Jewish Observer

Jewish Observer — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:12:55 +0000

“… roommate at Kerem BYavneh …told me ‘Anyone who tells you that they were not religiously adversely affected by their army experience is lying’.”

This is strong language for a Ben Torah

By: Edvallace

Edvallace — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 04:12:07 +0000

Jewish Observor,

Indeed, it would be a tremendous Kiddush Hashem but I fear that it will never happen because there’s too much water under this bridge. Far too much distrust on the part of all the parties involved and therefore not really a viable option. When one reads how the army now plans to dramatically change the special units that were made for Chareidim it leads to greater distrust. [To be honest, I don't understand what exactly the changes are but it's certainly not going to make anyone more trustful of the IDF, will it?]

Bottom line - I know far too many Israelis who attribute their current irreligious status to their time in the army. Anyone who claims it’s not a risk to their Yiddishkeit is fooling themselves. Hesder units certainly have it better and some actually grow in their observance but unfortunately many don’t. I don’t have the numbers on this but there’s no such thing as an insignificat minority in this instance.

By: Doron Beckerman

Doron Beckerman — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 02:49:01 +0000

I had a very religiously committed roommate at Kerem BYavneh who served in a Hesder combat unit, and he told me “Anyone who tells you that they were not religiously adversely affected by their army experience is lying”.

Another friend of mine demanded to be transferred out of his unit after his tank commander told him that he “needed the tank for a while” since his girlfriend was coming over to the base.

It is not exactly a model of “Vehaya Mechanecha Kadosh” ["and your camp shall be holy"], to say the least.

By: Jewish Observer

Jewish Observer — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 02:22:45 +0000

“I personally know many in the Chareidi camp who would have been only too glad to join were it truly an option”

By: Edvallace

Edvallace — Mon, 27 Feb 2006 01:32:18 +0000

Joel,

I just took another look at your post and indeed I did react far more strongly than was necessary. I took it in a way you obviously did not intend and I apologize for the strong tone. I guess since it followed up on the heels of the previous comment that I misread yours.

As far as the idea of the army being a very unwelcoming place for Chareidim, let’s just say I have alot more than simple anectdotal evidence to go on. I will not go into it here but its not just a belief. I personally know many in the Chareidi camp who would have been only too glad to join were it truly an option. The reality is that it isn’t and most Hesder people will tell you that as well. One day in the not too distant future there will be an expose by Hesder students on their treatment in the army. I couldn’t have been done earlier because to do so would have been seen as the ultimate betrayal. A few more AMona’s and it’ll be a reality.

Kol Tuv!

By: Chareidi Leumi

Chareidi Leumi — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:40:12 +0000

I’ll only comment further on mycroft’s insertion of the Torah’s milchemes mitzvah. He is correct, there is such a concept. And the troops were divided into three groups of equal size: combat, support, and learning.

I hope that you have a source for this beyond the whole shevet levi piece in the rambam. - that does not apply in active warfare.

By: mycroft

mycroft — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:01:35 +0000

“is that that Charedim, with their current attitudes, restrictions and loyalties, are more trouble to the army than they are worth”

That is the internal cheshbon hanefesh that the Chareidi world should undertake-why is it so that the Army correctly or incorrectly believes that.

By: Jewish Observer

Jewish Observer — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:52:34 +0000

“There was a study done decades ago in which the Israeli Army concluded that it neither needed nor desired charedim”

This could sound very anti charedi, almost in a racist way. Could you possibly be saying that Charedim are inerently less talented than non charedim? Of course not. Why isn;t thiss study supremely offensive? Answer- Because all the study is necesarily saying - is that that Charedim, with their current attitudes, restrictions and loyalties, are more trouble to the army than they are worth. I am not sure this is something to brag about.

By: Yaakov Menken

Yaakov Menken — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:51:06 +0000

Seems that it’s the third section which urgently needs beefing up in Israel.

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:37:30 +0000

The issues re Torasum Umnasum, Hesder, etc are complex, to say the least. I think that it is fair to say that most, if not all. Western countries, always had an exemption for theological students. OTOH, the questions whether everyone can and should avail himself of this argument against IDF service have ben explored by RAL Yivadleinu LChaim and RSY Zevin ZTL. While the IDF
probably has no need for everyone in Mir or Ponevezh, the assumption that some there would not benefit from an arrrangement such
as Charedi Nachal or an alternative to learning 24-7 is not that far fetched. Of course, both Limud HaTorah and the IDF protect
Klal Yisrael. However, the arguments that have been advanced to date assume rather simplistically that either everyone must
learn 24-7 , everyone must serve in the IDF with only Charedi Nachal and the hesder yeshivos offering a middle ground.

By: mycroft

mycroft — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:27:06 +0000

“Hatzalah was the on-site command on the south side (which is what I meant by “responsible” for all rescue operations on that side). Of course there were other ambulances, but Hatzalah was first on the scene and remained predominant on the south side throughout—their mobile command center was on-site before the second tower was hit. Hatzalah transported the Chief Medical Examiner when he became a victim.”
With your clarification I accept your description of the work that Hatzalah wouild do to rescue general people. Of course, there is a reason that a lot of their instructions of how to reach them are not in English-vhameven yavin.

“There was a study done decades ago in which the Israeli Army concluded that it neither needed nor desired charedim”
Even recent studies have claimed that-of course, in reality there should be a case by case analysis,

“The datiim who refused to participate in the Gaza withdrawal—on the word of Rabbis—”-It actually turned out to be a much smaller percentage than people thought. Of course, that could be a post on the apparent realative power of chareidi Rabbanim in their community versus the power of dati rabbanim in their community.

“gave a small hint of what it would be like to attempt to lead a charedi corps.”
What chareidim wouldn’t follow the law? Chareidm do in this country. I don’t follow the comment. Are you saying that both Porushes for example who I believed served in Hagannah/Zahal weren’t effective.

“A friend of mine was in a hesder yeshiva, but due to his physical condition was put behind a desk rather than in a hesder unit. Without going into details, he said he understood very well why the charedim find it not worthwhile to participate”

The issue is not the per cent of Chareidim who coulod be effective soldiers-but the willingness of a community to be part of clal Israel and defend the Jewish Yishuv. One does not have to believe that Israel has any religious benefit-besides a place that Jews live in and are not discriminated against to see responsibility for Jews to help in defending one another.

” Again, in what way is a yeshiva student inferior to a JAG lawyer with a desk job in Tel Aviv? ”
There are always White Collar jobs in the military-it is the idea that one accepts the jurisdiction of the state as at least the law of the land

” No one claiming to observe the Torah can deny that G-d runs the world”
But ein somchim al hanes. One does not ely on miracles. I assume that if anyone in your family is sick you would go to a physician. That is despite the fact that God is Rofei cholei amo yisrael.
In Tanach times even with Urim vtummim which we unfortunately don’t have today- there were armies and a concept of milchemet mitzvah which includes defense of Eretz Israel. No one was exempt from a milchemet mitzvah-a milchemet reshut yes,

By: Yaakov Menken

Yaakov Menken — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:55:31 +0000

Mycroft, involved is hardly the right word. Hatzalah was the on-site command on the south side (which is what I meant by “responsible” for all rescue operations on that side). Of course there were other ambulances, but Hatzalah was first on the scene and remained predominant on the south side throughout — their mobile command center was on-site before the second tower was hit. Hatzalah transported the Chief Medical Examiner when he became a victim.

There was a study done decades ago in which the Israeli Army concluded that it neither needed nor desired charedim. The datiim who refused to participate in the Gaza withdrawal — on the word of Rabbis — gave a small hint of what it would be like to attempt to lead a charedi corps. Nachal is on very restricted duty for that reason.

A friend of mine was in a hesder yeshiva, but due to his physical condition was put behind a desk rather than in a hesder unit. Without going into details, he said he understood very well why the charedim find it not worthwhile to participate. Again, in what way is a yeshiva student inferior to a JAG lawyer with a desk job in Tel Aviv? The Torah says that Torah study affords Divine protection. No one claiming to observe the Torah can deny that G-d runs the world, not us and our armies.

By: mycroft

mycroft — Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:22:55 +0000

“Hatzalah—which was responsible for all rescue operations on the south side of the WTC on 9/11″
Hatzalah was involved in the attempts to rescue on 9/11-and is a good piece of evidence for Rabbi Menken. But responsible for “ALL” rescue operations on the south side?

“The Israeli army is not an environment for frum people” Why? There are certainly frum people from the chardal side who have joined the army-but chareidi for this discussion is probably referring to the majority of chareidm who are non-Zionistic or anti the State. That proportion is the mainstream of modern chareidi Israel-in general the Ponovetz, Brisk, Mea Shearim,Neve Yacov etc mainstream chareidm.
If the chareidm were interested in joining the army something a la hesder-something could have been worked out.