Yes mainstream America DOES promote a religion; and it’s called commercialism.

Very few people pray to Cupid, and I suspect that in public schools very few people pray to St. Valentine. Certainly, the way it is promoted here is not conducive to praying to him - there are no images of the saint, or any other indication that Valentine is a person’s name.

Second, I do think it should be treated by schools just like Xmas, Easter, All Saints etc. And if this is not the case, the ACLU should definitely take action.

Third, all Christian holidays have Pagan origins. But to me, that doesn’t make a difference, since praying to Cupid, as Pagans do, and praying to S. Valentine, as Catholics do, is both avoda zora, at least for Jews.

You might also ask, “Why don’t Bill O’Reilly and John Gibson yell and scream about the “liberal war on Valentine’s Day? Why don’t the demand that it be called SAINT Valentines Day?”

I expect both questions have the same answer (ie: no American thinks Valentines Day is a religious holiday)

I wonder - do you think that effect comes from the supernatural / pretend supernatural component, or simply from there being no consequences involved?

Sorry, just razzing you.

- JO

I am not a lawyer, but if I understand the most recent Supreme Court decisions on the topic, the First Amendment comes into play when the government looks like it is endorsing some religion. Halloween and Valentine’s Day obviously have religious roots, and I don’t like how they’re observed in public schools, but I don’t think their form of observance constitutes “endorsement” of either paganism or Catholicism.

Toby complains that “the teachers openly promote witches and cupids, goblins and Greek gods, pagan rites of spring (the eggs being all that remains of Easter) and orgies of commercialism”. This is all kitsch that detracts from a school’s educational purpose, but I don’t see children coming home from school and asking to be inducted into the local coven or casting spells to help pass their algebra midterms.

If a religion doesn’t affect the believers’ moral code, does it really count as religion?
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Of course paganism DOES affect believers’ moral code. As the Talmud states, “Bnai Yisrael worshipped idols only to permit themselves sexual immorality.” Halloween, Valentine’s Day and so on provide that delightful frisson of something supernatural along with a belief system that basically says, “Do whatever you like, there are no consequences.”

Thank you, BTW, for the Chesterton quote. (”If people don’t believe in G-d they will believe in anything.”) How fascinating that the quote is a “phantom quote” that he never really said. But he SHOULD have said — it is so true!

… and I don’t listen to Howard Stern, I happened to catch what he said as I was turning the dial…

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I should have spelled out my fleeting thought there. I was not explaining why I was in the public school because of any embarrassment at being in such a building. (I can’t think of a reason why I should feel embarassed to be in a public school.) Rather, I was thinking that even if I didn’t send my kids to public school, I was willy nilly exposed to the icons of a pagan religion in a public place — as were all those who went there to vote! Had the polling place displayed Christian symbols there would probably have been some protests — though perhaps not, since some polling places actually are in church buildings, though never in the church sanctuary.

BTW, that quote is typically attributed to Chesterton, but it’s not really his: http://www.chesterton.org/qmeister2/any-everything.htm .

My examples were about religious expression and religious discrimination, not free speech, and showed that the ACLU is on the right side on those areas. I could show more examples that show that this is not unusual. I don’t agree with the ACLU on everything but they are not the evil force you make them out to be. And in some areas they do a lot of good.

‘It is only right-wing Christians—the ones who actually believe in their own religion’

This is a slander on sincere Christians who aren’t right wing. Christianity has many controversies and we should not get involved, especially by impuning the motives of one side or another. It is not for us to say who is a Christian believer or not.

If you would provide specific examples for the points in the remainder of your response to me I would try to respond.

“I went to the ACLU web site and found nothing on Valentine’s Day, either pro or con. They must think there are bigger problems.”

I don’t know why he imagined the ACLU site would have anything on Valentine’s Day. Their obsession with “separation of church and state” applies only to those religious beliefs that actually impact on morality.

Charles Hall then provided a number of links to current ACLU litigation. As these links show, the ACLU does speak up for free speech — so to speak — and kudos to them for that. In the current atmosphere of fear and repression on campus, where campus speech codes and “anti-hate” codes have directly muzzled students’ rights of free speech across the country, the ACLU has tended to side with students against leftist-fascist-PC-feminist faculty.

When you have cases in which different clauses of the Bill of Rights seem to be pitted against each other, it’s fascinating to see the ACLU bend and twist. From one state to another the ACLU (which is actually fifty different state CLU’s) will change and vary — for example, in one state fighting to allow students to distribute religious literature in school, while in another state they will fight to disallow it. What trumps what — does free speech trump the right to be free of religion, or vice versa? They’re still working on that one.

But in general, as I said, when there is a free speech issue — or when the case can be framed that way — the ACLU is usually pretty good.

Finally, Charles Hall did not like my formulation of the Foxman Thesis:
‘that Christians are pro-life and Jews are pro-abortion’

about which CH said,

“This is misleading for many reasons, among them that many Christian churches aren’t
“pro-life” at all but to the contrary have no problem with abortion.”

Of course the answer to that is that the ACLU has no problem at all with liberal churches or leftist Christians. It is only right-wing Christians — the ones who actually believe in their own religion — that give the ACLU the heebie-jeebies.

Take a for-instance: When a Republican candidate for office speaks in a right-wing church, there are angry, faux-fearful cries in the media — “America to Become Theocracy” — “Danger, Danger: Biblical Morality Ahead!” — “Republican Taliban Coming!”

But when a Democratic candidate speaks in a black church or a liberal Episcopalian church, the lefty pundits go all gaga-eyed and break out in the warm fuzzies. (BTW this is related to the general condescension and patronizing attitude of liberals towards blacks, Moslems and other ethnics — they let them say what they want because they don’t really take them seriously.)

I do need to point out that when I speak of the ACLU, I use that as a synecdoche for the whole alphabet soup of leftie organizations out there. They are hardly the only ones responsible for having replaced sex with religion as “the one thing above all which must be done in private if civilization is to survive.”

… and I don’t listen to Howard Stern, I happened to catch what he said as I was turning the dial…

If this doesn’t prove that Halloween is usur for Jews, we might as well celebrate Christmas! Chas v’shalom!!!

http://elie-expo.blogspot.com/2006/02/vexed-by-v-day.html

But your point is well taken. With Catholics, the liturgical day begins the evening before (sound familiar?). Halloween is the evening before All Saints Day, a holy day of obligation for Catholics.

But seriously, they are just as likely to take positions in favor or religious expression
as against. See for example:

http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/23445prs20060112.html

http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/22354prs20051206.html

http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/19910prs20050726.html

‘that Christians are pro-life and Jews are pro-abortion’

This is misleading for many reasons, among them that many Christian churches aren’t
“pro-life” at all but to the contrary have no problem with abortion.

Also, Halloween is actually a Christian holiday, even though most Christians don’t know it.
It is actually a fast day! See

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01315a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05647a.htm

“Holidays” like Valentine’s Day and Halloween make me glad I’m Jewish!

This was a very good line. The answer to the ‘why’ you asked originally, which I’d say applies to Halloween as well, is simply that nobody really cares. Kids enjoy Valentine’s Day & Halloween simply because they’re fun, not because they’re serious religious holidays - and adults are no different on either. Easter & Christmas, however, are taken much more seriously by religious Christians.

If something does not make moral demands on people, like the modern commercial pretend-paganism, is it religious, or is it just an elaborate game?