Comments on: A New Level of Vote Gathering? http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/ A Journal of Jewish Thought and Opinion Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:14:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Cross-Currents http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51860 Cross-Currents Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:10:45 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51860 <strong>Lighten Up…...</strong> It seems that my post of yesterday, asserting “foul play” in the blog award voting, has touched some sort of raw nerve among other J-bloggers—especially those who are contenders in some of the same areas. To review: I was up late o... Lighten Up……

It seems that my post of yesterday, asserting “foul play” in the blog award voting, has touched some sort of raw nerve among other J-bloggers—especially those who are contenders in some of the same areas.

To review: I was up late o…

]]> By: Toby Katz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51857 Toby Katz Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:19:37 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51857 Shlomo, lighten up, this is a popularity contest in a newspaper with nothing riding on it except some publicity for the blogs and the paper. It's not as if someone tried to throw an election -- the way the Florida Supreme Court tried to throw the election to Gore a few years back. Shlomo, lighten up, this is a popularity contest in a newspaper with nothing riding on it except some publicity for the blogs and the paper. It’s not as if someone tried to throw an election — the way the Florida Supreme Court tried to throw the election to Gore a few years back.

]]> By: Shlomo http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51854 Shlomo Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:14:19 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51854 I still don't understand why this had to be broadcast to the entire world. Forgive me if I'm being a bit dense. I still don’t understand why this had to be broadcast to the entire world.

Forgive me if I’m being a bit dense.

]]> By: Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51853 Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:46:40 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51853 Just to clarify-- My last sentence was just to point out a hole in internet-based information gathering, not to justify the wrong done. Just to clarify– My last sentence was just to point out a hole in internet-based information gathering, not to justify the wrong done.

]]> By: Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51852 Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:40:05 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51852 Why reveal this information?! The truth must be known to clarify that this sort of activity is not condoned nor will be ignored into silence by the frum community. If there is no clarification, then the rumors would fester and a greater chillul ha-shem would result from the appearance of denial and conspiracy. This situation would blemish the reputation of Hirhurim, the JIB awards, and the internet frum community. The two young men who perpetrated this scheme asked me to post this on their behalf to prevent just such a series of events. It is better that we know that what happened was the product of two young men who did something irresponsible and now realize that it was a bad spur-of-the-moment decision. How does knowing that create a hillul Hashem? I know the two young men who beefed up the votes- their intent was not malicious. I think that their impression of the vote was that it was somewhat of a free-for-all. Such an impression is not unwarrented considering that multiple voting is allowed (albeit over a period of days) and that gathering internet-based statistics is the wild-west of information science. Why reveal this information?! The truth must be known to clarify that this sort of activity is not condoned nor will be ignored into silence by the frum community. If there is no clarification, then the rumors would fester and a greater chillul ha-shem would result from the appearance of denial and conspiracy. This situation would blemish the reputation of Hirhurim, the JIB awards, and the internet frum community. The two young men who perpetrated this scheme asked me to post this on their behalf to prevent just such a series of events. It is better that we know that what happened was the product of two young men who did something irresponsible and now realize that it was a bad spur-of-the-moment decision. How does knowing that create a hillul Hashem? I know the two young men who beefed up the votes- their intent was not malicious. I think that their impression of the vote was that it was somewhat of a free-for-all. Such an impression is not unwarrented considering that multiple voting is allowed (albeit over a period of days) and that gathering internet-based statistics is the wild-west of information science.

]]> By: Yaakov Menken http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51851 Yaakov Menken Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:31:06 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51851 Shlomo, It's not the "best religion blog" but "best overall" that was tainted. Honestly, given the reaction of some of the other blogs to our solid performance, we suspected that an opponent of CC was as likely responsible as any adherent of Hirhurim. [Already, they have geared up to vote for Hirhurim while accusing me of blaming Gil for this.] You have two college kids doing a prank, either way. Wrong? Absolutely. But if (as argued above) we made too big a deal out of this, you're over-reaching. Shlomo,

It’s not the “best religion blog” but “best overall” that was tainted. Honestly, given the reaction of some of the other blogs to our solid performance, we suspected that an opponent of CC was as likely responsible as any adherent of Hirhurim. [Already, they have geared up to vote for Hirhurim while accusing me of blaming Gil for this.]

You have two college kids doing a prank, either way. Wrong? Absolutely. But if (as argued above) we made too big a deal out of this, you’re over-reaching.

]]> By: Shlomo http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51849 Shlomo Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:19:16 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51849 Another thought: I have no doubt that the story about he boys in the computer lab is 100% true. What they did was dishonest and halachically forbidden. However, I am unclear as to why the whole world needs to know about it. I can already envision the headlines: "Best Religion Blog Contest Marked by Cheating." Considering the potential for Chillul HaShem, what overarching goal was served by publicizing this? Another thought:
I have no doubt that the story about he boys in the computer lab is 100% true. What they did was dishonest and halachically forbidden.

However, I am unclear as to why the whole world needs to know about it.

I can already envision the headlines: “Best Religion Blog Contest Marked by Cheating.”

Considering the potential for Chillul HaShem, what overarching goal was served by publicizing this?

]]> By: Shlomo http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51846 Shlomo Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:52:52 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51846 As Micha wrote, in what sense is this a religion blog rather than a political blog written by religious people? Let me be more specific, what percentage of your postings would require prior recitation of Birkas HaTorah (had I not already done so) or, had they been printed out, require disposal in a respectful fashion? As Micha wrote, in what sense is this a religion blog rather than a political blog written by religious people?
Let me be more specific, what percentage of your postings would require prior recitation of Birkas HaTorah (had I not already done so) or, had they been printed out, require disposal in a respectful fashion?

]]> By: Dani Taylor http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51839 Dani Taylor Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:19:05 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51839 Thank you Rabbi Bloomenstiel, for the clarification. In general, polls can be easily skewed by whether or not an entrant's respective fanbase votes in polls; e.g.- if most of the people who read Hirhurim are the kind to vote in online polls, then they would end up with more votes than CC if most of the people who read CC don't vote in online polls. This can create issues in popularity polls and surveys, especially. Hence the need to ask for votes - that is, if CC's readers don't vote in online polls, CC needs to request that its readers stray from their norm and vote. Requesting votes is a very common practice nowadays; for example - elections. Elections wouldn't be what they are today without the parties involved going out and telling people to vote for them. Thank you Rabbi Bloomenstiel, for the clarification.

In general, polls can be easily skewed by whether or not an entrant’s respective fanbase votes in polls; e.g.- if most of the people who read Hirhurim are the kind to vote in online polls, then they would end up with more votes than CC if most of the people who read CC don’t vote in online polls. This can create issues in popularity polls and surveys, especially. Hence the need to ask for votes - that is, if CC’s readers don’t vote in online polls, CC needs to request that its readers stray from their norm and vote.

Requesting votes is a very common practice nowadays; for example - elections. Elections wouldn’t be what they are today without the parties involved going out and telling people to vote for them.

]]> By: Larry http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51838 Larry Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:14:37 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51838 To my friends at Cross-Currents from a member of a mainline protestant church, let me say: Let us not forget the purpose for the Jewish Israel Blog Awards. I have been able to introduce many folks who otherwise would not have read any of these pro-Israel blogs because of the JIB awards. I have also been able to send my thanks to many bloggers by voting for them and thus thanking them for their tireless (an unpaid) efforts to inform us about Israel. As I have conducted several online surveys, there are pitfalls in using the internet to conduct those surveys. Unless the survey is conducted in a secure website environment, there will be ways to stuff the ballot box. I trust the Jerusalem Post will be doing what they can to prevent ballot stuffing. Perhaps some young enterprising blogger should consider creating a secure website for the purpose of conducting internet surveys. There may be a potential market for such a product. I know that I would have been willing on several occasions to pay $100 to have a secure web site to conduct a survey where I would know there would be no double voting. To my friends at Cross-Currents from a member of a mainline protestant church, let me say:

Let us not forget the purpose for the Jewish Israel Blog Awards. I have been able to introduce many folks who otherwise would not have read any of these pro-Israel blogs because of the JIB awards. I have also been able to send my thanks to many bloggers by voting for them and thus thanking them for their tireless (an unpaid) efforts to inform us about Israel.

As I have conducted several online surveys, there are pitfalls in using the internet to conduct those surveys. Unless the survey is conducted in a secure website environment, there will be ways to stuff the ballot box. I trust the Jerusalem Post will be doing what they can to prevent ballot stuffing.

Perhaps some young enterprising blogger should consider creating a secure website for the purpose of conducting internet surveys. There may be a potential market for such a product. I know that I would have been willing on several occasions to pay $100 to have a secure web site to conduct a survey where I would know there would be no double voting.

]]> By: Toby Katz http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51830 Toby Katz Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:50:26 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51830 "I thought the point was to find the most popular blogs. The whole idea of campaigning and “vote for me” pleas makes the entire survey meaningless." --Micha In every campaign the candidates say "Vote for me." You can't /make/ people vote for you, though. You can only hope that they like you enough to actually do so. And I notice that C-C is hardly the only blog out there with a "vote for me" campaign. You complain that campaigning might skew the results. Well, a popularity poll with no campaigning might be skewed too, because people might like a blog but just not bother to vote at all if they aren't pushed a little. “I thought the point was to find the most popular blogs. The whole idea of campaigning and “vote for me” pleas makes the entire survey meaningless.” –Micha

In every campaign the candidates say “Vote for me.” You can’t /make/ people vote for you, though. You can only hope that they like you enough to actually do so. And I notice that C-C is hardly the only blog out there with a “vote for me” campaign.

You complain that campaigning might skew the results. Well, a popularity poll with no campaigning might be skewed too, because people might like a blog but just not bother to vote at all if they aren’t pushed a little.

]]> By: Yeshoua http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51827 Yeshoua Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:21:58 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51827 Perhaps people were voting from here in Israel there are those of us here who find it hard to sleep with everything happening here and therefore that it where the votes came. I would like to hear or see some sort of comment from The charedim Rabbonim as to what is happening here in Eretz Yisroel. Perhaps people were voting from here in Israel there are those of us here who find it hard
to sleep with everything happening here and therefore that it where the votes came. I would like to hear or see some sort of comment from The charedim Rabbonim as to what is happening here in Eretz Yisroel.

]]> By: Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51825 Rabbi Avraham Chaim Bloomenstiel Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:09:22 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51825 To clear the air about the voting irregularities - I am employed at one of the larger Universities in the Baltimore, MD area. The midnight to 2:00 am ballot rally was put together by two students who are big fans of Hirhurim. I confronted them after overhearing their discussion about it at the campus Hillel. They have given me permission to post this message. I am likewise sending this notice to both the blog awards and to Hirhurim. Rabbi Menken - please look me up in the Eruv Book and contact me if you have any other questions. -ACB To clear the air about the voting irregularities -

I am employed at one of the larger Universities in the Baltimore, MD area. The midnight to 2:00 am ballot rally was put together by two students who are big fans of Hirhurim. I confronted them after overhearing their discussion about it at the campus Hillel. They have given me permission to post this message. I am likewise sending this notice to both the blog awards and to Hirhurim. Rabbi Menken - please look me up in the Eruv Book and contact me if you have any other questions.

-ACB

]]> By: Nachum Lamm http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51823 Nachum Lamm Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:53:15 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51823 Rabbi Menken, 1:30 AM is 8:30 AM in Israel. There are millions of Jews in Israel, and the Jerusalem Post is an Israeli paper. I've just cast my first vote of this race, and it wasn't for you. This is getting embarassing. Rabbi Menken, 1:30 AM is 8:30 AM in Israel. There are millions of Jews in Israel, and the Jerusalem Post is an Israeli paper. I’ve just cast my first vote of this race, and it wasn’t for you. This is getting embarassing.

]]> By: Jewlicious » Jewsh and Israeli Blog Awards - Last Day to Vote! http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51820 Jewlicious » Jewsh and Israeli Blog Awards - Last Day to Vote! Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:19:58 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51820 [...] There seems to be a veritable slugfest going on between Cross Currents and Hirhurim. Yaakov Menken of Cross-Currents took umbrage with a large late-night increase in votes on the Hirhurim site in the Best Overall Blog category. He attributed this increase to some sort of undignified technique. No, not like covering yourself in the mantle of the Torah and claiming you are H@sh_m’s fave blog, but rather, he implied the existence of some seedy email campaign. Hello Kettle? Pot calling on line 1! Anyhow, this should be a fun race too! Anything can happen in this three way race between Cross-Currents, Hirhurim and Dry Bones! Fun, fun, fun! [...] [...] There seems to be a veritable slugfest going on between Cross Currents and Hirhurim. Yaakov Menken of Cross-Currents took umbrage with a large late-night increase in votes on the Hirhurim site in the Best Overall Blog category. He attributed this increase to some sort of undignified technique. No, not like covering yourself in the mantle of the Torah and claiming you are H@sh_m’s fave blog, but rather, he implied the existence of some seedy email campaign. Hello Kettle? Pot calling on line 1! Anyhow, this should be a fun race too! Anything can happen in this three way race between Cross-Currents, Hirhurim and Dry Bones! Fun, fun, fun! [...]

]]> By: Micha http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51818 Micha Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:11:40 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51818 I thought the point was to find the most popular blogs. The whole idea of campaigning and "vote for me" pleas makes the entire survey meaningless. But in what sense is this a religious blog, rather than a political blog run by religious people? I thought the point was to find the most popular blogs. The whole idea of campaigning and “vote for me” pleas makes the entire survey meaningless.

But in what sense is this a religious blog, rather than a political blog run by religious people?

]]> By: Bob Miller http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51815 Bob Miller Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:59:21 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51815 Based on the rules that allow more than one vote per person per round, I'd say that the principle of ballot-stuffing is built into the system. Anyway, Cross-Currents can always try to position itself as the blog for the elite if its vote lags. Someone who has the time and the inclination could check out the reader demographics to support this. Based on the rules that allow more than one vote per person per round, I’d say that
the principle of ballot-stuffing is built into the system. Anyway, Cross-Currents can always try to
position itself as the blog for the elite if its vote lags. Someone who has the time and
the inclination could check out the reader demographics to support this.

]]> By: Joe Schick http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51813 Joe Schick Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:47:59 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51813 Considering that Gil is an ordained Orthodox rabbi, there's clearly no marginalization of the Orthodox at issue. Maybe some people don't like Cross-Currents, or (more likely, I think) maybe some people really like Hirurim Considering that Gil is an ordained Orthodox rabbi, there’s clearly no marginalization of the Orthodox at issue. Maybe some people don’t like Cross-Currents, or (more likely, I think) maybe some people really like Hirurim

]]> By: Michael Bergman http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51808 Michael Bergman Wed, 01 Feb 2006 06:38:29 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51808 PS - I have no time to look at all the blogs in this category but after reading the 'about us' section in your blog, you have one more vote... PS - I have no time to look at all the blogs in this category but after reading the ‘about us’ section in your blog, you have one more vote…

]]> By: Michael Bergman http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51807 Michael Bergman Wed, 01 Feb 2006 06:05:07 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51807 Shalom Yaacov, - just a comment in passing from an outsider (I am Jewish, left Israel over 20 years ago, now lives in Asia and work for a charity). I write occasionally on Jewschool, which is how I got to the Jpost blogolimpics. So out of curiosity, I looked at some of the contenders. I find it disturbing to think that Hirhurim is so popular, when it advertises on its front a b book that put all Jewish ethics, and all human morals, to shame (Samson Blinded). An example: "In the Yom Kippur War, Israel should have used nuclear power and demilitarized Egypt to control its military development in the years to come." - this is about a country we had (and still do) signed a peace agreement mere 4 years later. Who ever writes this must lack something in his soul, and any Rabbi that truly understands God's love will not support such abhorrent views... You obviously know this Rabbi, and from your post I gather he is quite widely read. That is the sad reality of nowadays Judaism. With a heavy heart, Michael Shalom Yaacov, - just a comment in passing from an outsider (I am Jewish, left Israel over 20 years ago, now lives in Asia and work for a charity). I write occasionally on Jewschool, which is how I got to the Jpost blogolimpics. So out of curiosity, I looked at some of the contenders.

I find it disturbing to think that Hirhurim is so popular, when it advertises on its front a b book that put all Jewish ethics, and all human morals, to shame (Samson Blinded). An example: “In the Yom Kippur War, Israel should have used nuclear power and demilitarized Egypt to control its military development in the years to come.” - this is about a country we had (and still do) signed a peace agreement mere 4 years later. Who ever writes this must lack
something in his soul, and any Rabbi that truly understands God’s love will not support such abhorrent views…

You obviously know this Rabbi, and from your post I gather he is quite widely read. That is the sad reality of nowadays Judaism.

With a heavy heart, Michael

]]> By: Yaakov Menken http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51806 Yaakov Menken Wed, 01 Feb 2006 04:40:09 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51806 Ezzie, I would absolutely buy that argument -- if it weren't three times the number of votes either of us pulled in on the average <em>day</em>. I'm not saying it was ballot stuffing (if I were sure that it was, then JPost would disqualify it and we'd win). It was either stuffing or someone getting all his friends to jump in and vote at an odd time. Either way it's an "irregularity," and at least we can bring it up so we get people to vote again. Ezzie, I would absolutely buy that argument — if it weren’t three times the number of votes either of us pulled in on the average day. I’m not saying it was ballot stuffing (if I were sure that it was, then JPost would disqualify it and we’d win). It was either stuffing or someone getting all his friends to jump in and vote at an odd time.

Either way it’s an “irregularity,” and at least we can bring it up so we get people to vote again.

]]> By: Ezzie http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51805 Ezzie Wed, 01 Feb 2006 04:31:33 +0000 http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/01/31/a-new-level-of-vote-gathering/#comment-51805 Cute (and really paranoid) post... but you'd be surprised. Gil tends to post pretty late at night a lot, and his readers probably know that - plus, many bloggers come on late. Finally, you've got to remember that the West Coast readers are 3 hours behind. Maybe (!) he's just more popular! ;) Cute (and really paranoid) post… but you’d be surprised. Gil tends to post pretty late at night a lot, and his readers probably know that - plus, many bloggers come on late. Finally, you’ve got to remember that the West Coast readers are 3 hours behind. Maybe (!) he’s just more popular! ;)

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