Also note that it’s mentioned by Shmuel in the context of: “You want a king? He’s going to take ten percent of your money!

I would like to see whether there was enforcement of ma’aser laws. Most evidence points to “no,” I’d think.

The obligation to tithe and to bring sacrifices and to leave your field fallow every 7 years are significant burdens, imposed by the Torah state.

Ori: Is it? Today, those restrictions only apply to individuals. But in a Torah society wouldn’t a Beit Din enforce those restrictions? For example, if I were to sell a $5 book for $25, wouldn’t the buyer be able to claim “ona’a” and retract the deal?

Alan Scott: much of Yeshayah is screeds against the wealthy, who can be heard trying to defend their anti-social and anti-Torah behavior under the laissez-faire philosophy of “it’s my money”

Does Yeshayah mind the laissez-faire philosophy, or did he mind that the rich used their power to obtain what was not rightfully there? See, for example, Isaiah 10:1-2:
א הוי החקקים, חקקי-און; ומכתבים עמל, כתבו. ב להטות מדין, דלים, ולגזל, משפט עניי עמי–להיות אלמנות שללם, ואת-יתומים יבזו.

Lumpy, I think we can manage to find a middle ground between $8.95 and $40/hour, which is more than web designers earn for their time unless they are consulting. Aren’t they also worthy of a living wage?

The Torah obviously imposes Halachic restrictions upon what we can do, but that is upon us as individuals. The society still operated in a capitalist fashion, without arbitrary imposition of salary standards. Certainly extortion was never smiled upon.

Maybe as an enemy of G-dliness.

Judaism abhors a “free market”. Remember: All debts go unpaid every seventh year. The only individuals who may be charged interest are foreign (nochri) merchants. Every 50 years sees a Massive Land-redistribution. Competition is curtailed to protect the livelihood of those who enter an industry first (the common “you can’t open a second kosher pizza store in this town/on this street” psak). Etc etc.

The Neviim are even more stringent in their opposition: much of Yeshayah is screeds against the wealthy, who can be heard trying to defend their anti-social and anti-Torah behavior under the laissez-faire philosophy of “it’s my money”. Real estate consolidaters are excoriated for pushing land values up so high that the poor can no longer afford to live. Amos calls the rich women of Israel “Bashan cows” for their greedy, consumerist, and yes *capitalistic* attitude towards economics in the sanctified nation. For more examples, just open any page in Neviim Acharonim or Parshat Mishpatim. The Torah does not abide Western capitalism, especially not the version of our American economics which does not respect the rights or dignity of laborers, workers, and the poor.

Um, you’re the one who started with the visionizing, with your pompous proclamations about what a bus driver should be earning.

And of course you’ll edit this,

Free market capitalism is not found in the Tanach or Gemarah. Jewish law strictly regulates most industries. The very fact that a Jewish butcher may not sell pig meat - no matter what the demand for it might be -belies the idea that Jewish law is pro-free-market. And there are countless other examples of Jewish law interfering with the interplay of supply and demand.

Or you become a transit worker. Not everyone is cut out for college (which, BTW, does not guarantee a high salary) and not everyone can be an entrepreneur. Would you prefer to have your train piloted by someone being paid $8.25 an hour?

It’s only my opinion, but this “let them eat cake” attitude doesn’t seem to jibe with Judaism.

I did not claim, as Larry would have it, that their wage is a matter of a particular Torah philosophy. This hardly means the Torah doesn’t expect, and in fact require, that we keep our word and not engage in extortion.

DovBear can engage in whatever vision he may have of what salaries should be, but free-market capitalism (as found in Tanach and the Gemara) has consistently proven itself superior to communism or socialism. Artificial determinations of what people should earn don’t hold up in the real world. His claim that the MTA’s offer would not have met inflation is also false in real numbers, and if indeed the last contract did not keep up (which I doubt), the system has yet to recover from the previous, successful extortion attempt in 1980. They are currently overpaid by any objective standard.

Even were DB’s salary statements accurate (and that is contested), they still are nonsensical. A police officer must volunteer to put himself in harm’s way on an ongoing basis, meet rigorous physical and intellectual standards, and go through months of training before he starts on the force. A bus driver must present a valid driver’s license.

The attempt to paint right wing political decisions with a halachic veneer is becoming a widespread and quite dangerous phenomenon. It is a danger we would be well advised to avoid

$55,000 may seem like a lot of money in flyover country, in NYC its just enough to put you squarely in the middle class - exactly where a hardworking, honest bus driver belongs.

“Supply and demand” would also support eliminating the min. wage in some industries. It’s that kind of thinking that leads to poverty and its attendant ills.

Sure, I’d love to see the bus driver make a cool million, but that’s irresponsible use of the public coffers. It makes no sense that a first-year cop or college-educated professional is making a fraction of a bus driver’s salary.

That’s a false comparison. A “first year cop” and the “average transit worker” is not apples to apples. An average cop, in fact does better than an average transit worker. You say the average transit worker makes $62,000. The NYPD website says: “NYPD Police Officers will earn $75,000, on average, after 5 1/2 years of service.”

Starting salary for most transit workers is about $33000 a year, barely enough to pay for housing and food in a city that has among the highest living costs in the world. Cops start ar about $34,000

Also, what college-educated professional is making a “fraction” of a bus driver’s salary? Especially in NY, where STARTING SALARIES for college educated professionals (CEP) are in the low 50s and the “average” CEP is making much, much more than $62,500. In NY skilled secretaries -with no college education- can make 80K.

I agree it might seen strange for a CEP to make a “fraction” of what a bus driver earns, but that’s not the case. Not in NY, anyway.

Ori: Because it’s a legal monopoly. If anybody were allowed to start his or her own bus company in New York, and to dig new subways, it wouldn’t be.

When there are 30 applicants for every opening, you know the salary is above what supply and demand would support. This is, in fact, what collective bargaining is designed to accomplish. As a result, you can get a college-educated programmer for less than a bus driver. Sure, I’d love to see the bus driver make a cool million, but that’s irresponsible use of the public coffers. It makes no sense that a first-year cop or college-educated professional is making a fraction of a bus driver’s salary.

In France the unions have been known to paralyze the whole country. They can get whatever they want but the ultmiate result is a stagnant economy and permanent high rates of unemployment. In the extreme you then end up with thousands of Arabs rioting in the streets.

Why do you presume it wasn’t this law of economics that produced the high-seemig salary in the first place?

Anyway, in NY $69,000 isn’t very much money, and you sound a little petty begrudging them their pay.