Comments on: ‘Tis The Season

By: Dov Wachmann

Dov Wachmann — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:24:25 +0000

Reb Yitzchok,
You nitpick the old issue of the Jewishness of the tradition that Jesus was killed by the Jews while ignoring a new issue that may be more pertinent… PR material on Klinghoffer’s website invokes the tradition of the disputation, “For the first time in modern history, Klinghoffer, an Orthodox Jew, revives an ancient tradition � that of the disputation, going back to the Middle Ages � to explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus”. This description overlooks the fact that it was a tradition that Jews relished almost as much as they relished that other great tradition in Christian-Jewish dialogue - the pogroms.

The National Review’s Michael Potemra estimates that Christians “will surely account for the lion�s share of the book�s readership” Is it right for an Orthodox Jew to publish a book aimed at Christians that debunks their theology?

By: Sammy Finkelman

Sammy Finkelman — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:10:58 +0000

> Is it not possible that these gemaros do indeed refer to Jesus, but editors/censors changed the names of the other Tannas involved to protect the Talmud?

> In other words, the editors and copyists of the Gemara wanted to allow the following generations to avoid any persecution, therefore they made the stories seem seperate. It just seems that there are too many coincidences (Mary, Matthew, Jesus, etc.) for these stories not to be referring to Jesus.

Is it possible thqt the Christians confused two different individuals, one of whom lived well over 100 years before the other, and that the first one was originally more famous? Matthew is a name I think - although he was supposed to be a immediate folower, appears nowehere in the stories? So maybe Matthew was a folower of the first one?

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:06:07 +0000

The analysis by Rav Irons that I refer to above is in Series 5, as shown in Jewish Heritage Foundation brochure,
in the set I bought of Tapes 1 and 2 (consisting of The Missing Talmud and The Missing Vessels).

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:35:42 +0000

These issues are discussed in depth in one of Rav Shmuel Irons’ history audiotapes. He is Rosh Kollel in Detroit (actually Oak Park, MI). Evidently, two figures from different eras were known as “Yeshu haNotzri”. See info on the tape series (which includes more than those shown) at http://www.613.org/irons.html

By: Talmudix

Talmudix — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:01:34 +0000

Is it not possible that these gemaros do indeed refer to Jesus, but editors/censors changed the names of the other Tannas involved to protect the Talmud?
In other words, the editors and copyists of the Gemara wanted to allow the following generations to avoid any persecution, therefore they made the stories seem seperate. It just seems that there are too many coincidences (Mary, Matthew, Jesus, etc.) for these stories not to be referring to Jesus.

By: Zev Sero

Zev Sero — Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:25:15 +0000

Tosefot in gemara Shabbat says that the Yeshu there (the one whose mother’s name sounds suspiciously like Mary Magdalene) could not possibly be the same person as the Yeshu Hanotzri in gemara Sanhedrin, who was a student of R Yehoshua ben Perachia. RYbP taught during the reign of Alexander Yannai (103-76 BCE), while the husband of “Miriam Megdalia” shared a cell with R Akiva, after bar Kochva’s fall in 135 CE.
For the same reason, neither of them could be the same as the Jesus of the New Testament, who was at least a century too late for the Yeshu in Sanhedrin, and more than a century too early for the one in Shabbat.

By: Nachum Lamm

Nachum Lamm — Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:38:17 +0000

The story is in the end of Sanhedrin, Perek Chelek, but is edited out of most editions (look for the big white space at the bottom of the amud). I know R. Steinsaltz includes it, and Soncino does so in translation. I don’t know if Artscroll does.

More importantly is the practical effect here: The Sanhedrin *couldn’t* have executed anyone. Is Klinghoffer saying that the Jewish authorities (who were likely Tzedukim at the time) handed him over to the Romans, and the Gemara takes “credit” for that as if the Sanhedrin executed him?

In any event, this is a minor point of Klinghoffer’s book. There’s a lot more there to agree or disagree with.

Finally, R. Adlerstein: Are you saying aggados of the Gemara can be wrong! Horrors! Seriously, “Yeshu” was a very common name of that era- and who knows, perhaps the Gospel accounts are corrupted versions of the real story, as told in the Gemara.

By: Gil Student

Gil Student — Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:51:57 +0000

For what it’s worth, here’s a link to my online essay about Jesus in the Talmud where I discuss the various passages and point to the historical problems and different resolutions: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

By: David

David — Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:15:06 +0000

Where in the Gemara is this story of Yeshu being hung on erev Pesach?

By: Michoel

Michoel — Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:52:59 +0000

You’re %100 right. And even if you weren’t, I seriously question the wisdom of publishing such a book.